Wanting to map again

[Sanek]

Hi all.
I don't have to release anyting for almost two years. I usually have to do the "supervising" kind of work for my project, but I don't even launch mapster until this summer. And finally, in august, I started work on new map, and I just want know - what kind of response I will get now - because I will not improve since 2010, and soon you will have the typical city map in your hands. Is it still sceptical opinions about me and my work in community?
And two another questions. I don't have to update mapster since March 2011. Is it worth to download new version? Is it still comfortable?
About TROR. Every map of today should have this feature?
And...can you give me some advices about things that I don't have to do(like I do in my previous maps;weapons ratio, for example), and I have to do?
Thank you anyway...

[Forge]

Releases seem to be rare these days so another new map would be welcome.

Don't expect a huge response though. Feedback has been lacking lately, even for anticipated and highly regarded projects.

I would recommend getting the latest snapshot, alot of bugs have been fixed since the last copy you've acquired.

TROR is a neat little feature, but not necessary. Using it extensively may also require the map to be played with polymer.

I'm sure you can find some beta testers when the time comes to tune the ratios and other game play aspects.

[MSandt]

TROR is definitely not necessary. It doesn't even support the Polymost mode. Moreover, it's a pain in the butt to use.

[Micky C]

Yes, TROR is not necessary. I disagree that it's a pain in the butt to use, I think it's a lot easier than making sliding doors, transport elevators (I still haven't gotten one to work for me), and even submersible water.

[Gambini]

It´s easy for you, because you got the hand of it while still learning the editor. For people like me or Mikko, who have been building maps for about 15 years without TROR, It´s a pain in the ass.

Honestly, I tried it myself maybe once when the feature was still in development, or maybe I didn´t even try it at all. But just reading all those new hotkeys, names, definitions and concepts the game never ever had before makes me run away from it. I don´t want to assimilate all those new concepts for this very old hobby that pops up every now and then. It´s not worth it.

Also, the simplest TROR implementation would surely take me more time than learning a new technic, on whatever other creative software I use (a modelling program, a graphics editor, another level editor). I´d go rather spend my time in those, that at least i feel they can come handy for something else in the future. If there was a hope for a ROR system in Duke. Then It had to be in the same fashion all other effects work in duke (like a two sprites linking two isolated sectors). As things are right now, TROR sounds to me more like a Mapster extension to take advantage of Polymer´s actual 3D core, and the software renderer trying to mimick the effect to some extend. When it should be the other way around.

Still all these new things the port has are cool for modders that want to do modern-like stuff. But when it comes to strict duke mapping, i´d rather stick to what´s been there all life.

[Micky C]

It can start to get tricky as you make more and more complicated architecture with it, but at its core, TROR is quite simple. 1: Highlight a sector. 2: Press ctrl-e to make an extension. 3: Press a or z to make the new layer go up or down. Then bam, you've got TROR.

It would not be possible for ROR in classic to be any more sophisticated than TROR. An SE based ROR system would work the exact same way and have the exact same limitations from a purely rendering perspective. In fact, you can actually build a TROR map the same way you would make SE ROR (with the layers as different physical sections), and then join them at the end, which is a very fast and automatic process.

The benefits of TROR over SE ROR is that it can be much more complicated (maps like Parkade would not be possible, at least not to the same extent), it would require less processing power in polymer, and it's easier to visualize in the editor, because you can see the rooms exactly where they're supposed to be, and everything's easier to edit, because all the points move at the same time rather than having to move them separately and worry about making sure they match up. It's probably true that it's easier to learn TROR as you're learning the editor (I wouldn't say I was learning the editor myself when I picked up TROR, I had two full maps released by that time and had various junk in the works), which makes it even more suitable, because it would help to draw new, young mappers into the community which we desperately need.

[MSandt]

It's not so much the fact that we've gotten used to Build/Mapster the way it has been for the past 16 years but the fact that we've gotten used to other, actual 3D editors where it's extremely simple to implement such effects. After this the Mapster method is like the equivalent to using a tactical nuke to solve a pest problem in your house. It's very limiting because it forces to rely on preliminary plans, hurting spontaneity.

[Micky C]

It gets easier to retro-ror as you become more experienced, but I do understand that compared to true 3D engines you and Gambini have been working with, TROR would be a lot harder and more restrictive.

[David B.]

I've been using Build since the end 90's, so I understand some opinions and I feel the same way.

I'm currently working a little bit TROR and well... I also think it's very limitative and tricky.
But I have to admit now I've reached to obtain a nice mutli-floored structure with that and the look of the building is pretty amazing. I'll just try to finish the project I'm busy with, but to be honest I don't like this feature at all. Frankly I don't intend to work with TROR one more time after that.

I like Duke cause it's a familiar environment, I've got a mental picture and I'm able to make a map scene with it which is great. I'm not working with other 3D editor cause I've never touched any other game editors – excepted worldcraft with half-life I.
So the curiosity is pushing me to use TROR for a while... but there is no other reason. Moreover, I regret above all that TROR doesn't even support polymost

For all that restrictions I don't think many mapper will use it, moreover for an aging game.
So in your opinion, what's the future of TROR maps ?

[Puritan]

I say: Map original Duke Nukem 3D!! 


(We need more maps... )

[Micky C]

So in your opinion, what's the future of TROR maps ?

Complex, multistory TROR maps are going to be rare (this may change a bit when polymer is properly optimised). I'm aware of lots of fairly complex TROR maps currently in development by various mappers, but once those are released things might die down a bit there. Another hope is that TROR will become easier (it'll certainly be less limited) when the new map format comes out.

However, TROR maps don't necessarily have to be large and complex, they could practically be vanilla maps with small touches of TROR here and here for things like transparent water, manholes or other holes that the player can drop/fly through such as elevator shafts with doors on the same side, something the player can't reach but is just there for scenery, or maybe a way of allowing the top half of a room to be edited without worrying about messing up the bottom half.

Good examples of mods which use TROR in a minimal way for decoration or to overcome small obstacles include the AMC TC, Crackdown,  BLiGHT, and WGRealms 2 is taking it one step further with several maps which make heavy, complex use of the feature.

[Forge]

Hi all.
I don't have to release anyting for almost two years. I usually have to do the "supervising" kind of work for my project, but I don't even launch mapster until this summer. And finally, in august, I started work on new map, and I just want know - what kind of response I will get now - because I will not improve since 2010, and soon you will have the typical city map in your hands. Is it still sceptical opinions about me and my work in community?
And two another questions. I don't have to update mapster since March 2011. Is it worth to download new version? Is it still comfortable?
About TROR. Every map of today should have this feature?
And...can you give me some advices about things that I don't have to do(like I do in my previous maps;weapons ratio, for example), and I have to do?
Thank you anyway...

Can we discuss the original topic of the thread and not go on extended tangents about an optional mapster feature?

Yes, make a new map please.

The only one skeptical is Gambini (and that's Gambini being Gambini, you should be used to it by now). You're the only one who ever brings it up anymore. If anything, I've defended you on several occasions.

Contrary to popular belief, I'm not "anti-Russian". You can thank Numan for that perception. I started a thread at DN-R because of the sudden influx of a dozen Russian members who couldn't speak a lick of English, and all they did was complain about everything. I found the Russian forum where they all migrated from (ran by DMV?), discovered that they had angst against the european english speaking members at the 3DR forum. So I started a thread at DN-R suggesting we should all pay back the favor and go invade their Russian forum and start complaining about everything. Numan was pissed at me during this time so he used is admin rights to twist up everything I wrote to make it look like it was a bunch of hate filled propaganda.

Update your version of mapster for bug fixes.

TROR is an optional feature. If you want to learn it there's some references on this page http://www.scent-88.com/Utilities/index.html

When you're close to finishing I'm sure you'll find a few volunteers who will beta-test it for you.


@Sanek: where are you at in your progress at this time? Do you have any screen shots?

[MSandt]

For the record, I am anti-Russian but I still take individuals for what they are rather than for the countries they represent.

[Sanek]

Thank you for your posts!

I'll get the latest snapshot as Forge said, and also, as anonther guys said, I think that don't have to use TROR.

Sanek: where are you at in your progress at this time? Do you have any screen shots?

Yes, look below:






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[Sanek]

Two more.

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