Canyon-style design problem

Started by Sanek, 30 September 2012, 11:21:50

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Sanek

I just discovered that canyon-style-themed maps releases are don't quite regular as the releases of the city or space themed maps. IMO, the main problem is that canyon maps simply don't have such variety in design as city maps do. Generaly, such maps is created for the gameplay sake, really good design doesn't matter.
I think that the main problem is that the walls around the player looks a little bit empty, but maybe it doesn't matter, I don't know.
If we just make the empty maze with a lots of enemies, the whole map will have a look like this:



But we can add some rocks and sprites around that, and it will have a look like this:




Or that:



Well, it looks a little bit more detailed, but we still have one big, major problem - the repetions of all that things(like in Mister Sinister's Canyon or my parts of Wide Open Spaces. I think that it doesn't so bad if you want to make this map for the gameplay sake, but we have some exceptions, when the action takes place mainly in desert(not like Henri's maps) and looks good, or average. I just show some screenshots from Allan Page' map, WESTWUZ1:









Probably I just don't play much canyon-style maps(don't give me any links to such maps!), but I think it's will be good if we have discussion about that. Probably I even make a map in such style(like in the first three shots), but I don't know if I have time...
Well, what you think?

Micky C

#1
It'd be very difficult to get the inspiration to make something like a pure canyon map. IMO the best canyon maps have been hybrids with other genres (or at least contain moderately prominent location(s) from other genres). Typical things to include in these maps are caves/mines, small towns, or a hi tech base.

IMO I don't just like these hybrids because of the variety, but they also give you a very good sense of progression, like you're actually going from one place to another, which is somewhat missing in most non-linear maps. The best example I can think of at the moment is Geoffrey's Megabase in the AMC TC. Having to scale those cliffs to get to that base high up was fantastic. It didn't even feel like a set path, it was very natural  8)

And then on top of that you end up in a dark abandoned freaky area with weird brain things... hold on I'm gonna go work on my AMC map..
Wall whore.

Loke

I like canyon-themed maps especially those with massive scales with Millhaven (absolutely amazing map) from the AMC TC being one of my favorites. When I were designing Desert Storm I originally wanted the canyon section to be much more massive in scale with lots of small side-areas that the player could discover. However, due to the sector/wall limit (as well as detailing the base which took massive amount of resources) I could never fulfill that idea and as such it ended up being much smaller and kinda closed in with barely any impressive visual vistas.

methy

#3
I agree that maps that only focus on canyon textures can get boring, but then again there are few maps like that to my knowledge. If that's the case old maps they usually have western style bars and houses (kinda like what has DNF actually !)

Even westwuz1 doesn't get boring because it has nice waterfalls and water textures to make it less boring.

What I like best are maps that mix western textures and road textures, like Red5. I started a map like this not too long ago for which I have quite big plans (but little time to map), I can show screenshots when I'm back home in a couple of days.

Also the main important thing to me is to try and make walls and sectors with rock textures look realistic, with slopes, good shading, different levels of height (like in the last screenshot in the first post), and not to forget to make some of them as "caves" (by that I mean lowering the ceiling and having a rock texture instead of the sky, like in the first screenshot of westwuz1 in the first post).

Edit : actually here are 2 screenshots I found on my photobucket account. This area has been made better since then though



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Micky C

Another important thing is to make sure the cliff tops aren't at a constant height. There are several ways to vary it up, most of them really quick and easy.

Speaking of canyon maps, I'm still pretty proud of the mini map I made for the half hour CBP thing. It uses mostly grass for the floor, which mixes things up from all the usual browns. This map makes great use of smooth mounds and pits.

Old pick:



Does anyone think people would be interested in doing a canyon CBP? It won't be as ambitious as the last CBP so this one would be a lot easier and faster.
Wall whore.

methy

QuoteAnother important thing is to make sure the cliff tops aren't at a constant height. There are several ways to vary it up, most of them really quick and easy.

What do you mean several ? I can only think of sloping the sectors and of course lowering the ceiling.

Here is another caynon style stuff I started quite some time ago. It's still very W.I.P.
Was supposed to be a DM map but I plan to turn it into a small single player map.

No road this time but a couple of buildings and a railway. Also the waterfall to break the monotonous rock textures.



http://thisshitaintscary.blogspot.com/ - The only Blog solely dedicated to Horror video games

High Treason

I've never tried to build a Canyon map as I generally find the concept unappealing unless it's done right.

Seeing this thread (and having recently played the Red maps) is making me think I might give it a go in future... Better not yet though, I've alredy got enough projects making me pull my hair out - I got seriously scared the other day, I wrote over 100 lines of CON and when I tried to run it there were no warnings or errors, I thought the parser was broken.

But yeah, canyon maps, I think I'd try either making a really deep canyon where the player can never see over the top which would give me loads of room to do things to the walls, probably have a river and a waterfall and multiple paths with rock formations seperating them and of course some overhang from the ground above so that the player looks up and knows they aren't getting out of there. Or else go for a shallow canyon and try to have scenery outside of it that the player can never reach (I like to spend a lot of time working on unreachable parts of my maps, I feel they add a lot of depth) which would break the monotony and maybe have the player slowly advance to a landmark in the distance (Alien base hidden under large rock formation?) so there is a sense of progression.
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Sanek

Quote from: Micky C on  30 September 2012, 11:32:55
It'd be very difficult to get the inspiration to make something like a pure canyon map. IMO the best canyon maps have been hybrids with other genres (or at least contain moderately prominent location(s) from other genres).
I'm agree. Even the original E1L5 is a hybrid of some kind.

Quote from: methy on  30 September 2012, 18:35:06
Also the main important thing to me is to try and make walls and sectors with rock textures look realistic, with slopes, good shading, different levels of height (like in the last screenshot in the first post), and not to forget to make some of them as "caves" (by that I mean lowering the ceiling and having a rock texture instead of the sky, like in the first screenshot of westwuz1 in the first post).
But you really can't make everything you want with every rock(because of the mapster limits), isn't it? ;)

Quote from: Micky C on  01 October 2012, 03:48:31
Does anyone think people would be interested in doing a canyon CBP? It won't be as ambitious as the last CBP so this one would be a lot easier and faster.
I think you yourself answered on your question. After such gorgeous map like the last CBP, the canyon one will not look seriously.



If my city map will be completed, will be ready for the most monotonous canyon map you ever played in your life. :)