When community has changed

Started by Sanek, 05 January 2013, 01:54:35

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Sanek

There is some changes in the community that I don't like and it's certainly doesn't good.
We hit a slump with the release of Duke Nukem Forever, and we've been picking up speed lately, but there are some changes with community with which we had to stay in forever.  The number of good releases are still dwindling, and in case of bring more attention to the project, merely all of that "new" mappers brings new eduke32 trick to change the shape and effect of the maps - TROR, but in effect, maps that was already released with TROR don't add much to the gameplay, but the maps still have to be presented as something really good. Add Polymer-oriented map and you will have a smash hit in your hands!
There is no record that the playes ever especially liked TROR, or could even remember whether or not a map was in the TROR, but once it was installed there was no turning back for "new" mappers. 

But even if map have to get some feedback, it's been very small. The only way get that kind of attention as 2-3 years ago is to release big TC'S (kinda AMC TC) or BIG maps ( kinda CBP 8 ). Zykov Eddy's "Slender's Woods" is appreciated as summer-movie blockbuster (which "new" guys try to set in their maps), but it's hardy have any connection with Duke3D.
But what really shocked me is that guys on duke4.net forums. They post some shots from their projects, but it seems that their target is not to release something, but to get more reputation points.

Probably it sounds very strange to some of you, but that what I fell at the moment. :(

Micky C

#1
Whenever people say that other people are posting things at Duke4.net to get reputation points I can't help but think that they're talking about me. Just to clear things up, most of the stuff I post are of my Serious Sam episode and that's definitely going to be released at some point, and not to mention I post several shots over here that I don't at Duke4.net too.

On with the post.
If you look at MSDN, we've had more hot maps released last year than any year since 2008!!!!

TROR isn't really a game changing feature, other than changing the layout. It makes multistory buildings and rooftops much, much more viable, as well as other things. Whether users remember a map uses TROR or not doesn't really matter, users don't remember anything technical about maps really. It also removes other limitations, such as allowing mappers to edit the floor independent of the ceiling, which allows some more complex construction there.

I know what you mean by maps not getting a huge amount of responses like they used to, and most of them are from other mappers, rather than players. Hopefully it doesn't mean less people are playing the maps.

Unfortunately though the community probably is slowly dwindling, but IMO that makes it all the more important to draw in new (or even old) mappers with new and exciting features like TROR and polymer. There's still room for traditional maps, but it doesn't hurt to have these maps with extra features (assuming people have the hardware to play them).
Besides, there are probably 10's of thousands of traditional Duke maps, I don't think people should complain if there are suddenly a few extra dozen polymer/TROR maps  :D

Edit: The good news is that multiplayer should be finished early this year, and having a stable, easy to set up version of multiplayer working with all the bells and whistles of the latest eduke32 ought to really give the community the boost it needs. Too bad it wasn't already working when Duke3D was available for free  :'(
Wall whore.

Forge

If the number of releases has dropped off or not doesn't seem to be an issue. The problem is the lack of feedback which has taken a huge nose dive over the last few years regardless of whether or not the project is classic or polymer based.

I don't think new mappers or new maps are being forced to use tror or polymer lighting to get attention for their projects since all maps, no matter the video mode that is used, seem to get mediocre responses.

I do agree about the attention whoring at Duke4 just to get worthless rep points. You can't turn them into a finished product and nobody benefits except the people who like to look at nice screen shots. With a few minor exceptions, that's all you get over there (i know Micky's shots are of actual productions since I have my nose where it doesn't belong  ;) ). There's absolutely no serious public forum over there to discuss maps and the production phase. The only time you ever see anything about maps is when they're released, and it's done at Duke4 because that's where the majority of the community hangs out. Even that seems kinda pointless because you have a large number of people, but only a handful of any constructive responses. It's usually just throw a rep point at the author and post some generic blurb about how cool or fun it was. I'd like to know why it's "cool" or "fun", but you hardly get that.

Welcome to my world Sanek. I've felt the same way about most of the things you've mentioned for quite some time now.
Take it down to the beach with a hammer and pound sand up your ass

High Treason

I always feel guilty when I have to leave a project behind, I always feel like I must be one of those attention whores. I've been posting images of a project for about a year now that I dread losing interest in.

All in all though, I do agree with this thread and the only reason I'm not elaborating on that is because it has already been said in the above posts. I'll elaborate on one thing, for a time, I thought Duke4.net's forums had moved and been replaced by a political forum, I should write to Puritan and try talking him into adding a "no politics" rule on here.
[glow=black,2,300]sprite[].sectnum -1[/glow]

Forge

#4
Quote from: High Treason on  05 January 2013, 05:00:51
...I thought Duke4.net's forums had moved and been replaced by a political forum, I should write to Puritan and try talking him into adding a "no politics" rule on here.

Guilty!

got tired of reading the extremist propaganda and decided to troll them with facts
Take it down to the beach with a hammer and pound sand up your ass

ck3D

#5
what you get now with the true room over room hype is the same thing i kind of felt a few years back with dukeplus features and the hrp (but those are examples). for instance i never really understood why project zero got such a high rating on msdn, putting it in the top 5 of the website for several months until Gambini released It Lives! : http://msdn.duke4.net/hotprojectzero.php the map itself was very mediocre in terms of actual design and gameplay interest, and was pretty much a dukeplus demonstration map.

now i also see mikko's side of things, what matters is not how cheap the map might feel for us, mappers, behind the scenes with our technical knowledge of how things work, but how players might enjoy the level and its new features, whether they might be carefully implemented strictly within (and around) the original limitations of the build engine, coded, or just novelty tricks made possible with the latest add-ons. i, for one, tend to have more respect for pure user maps that do not take advantage of all the new features, but that's my personal opinion. most of the players who are going to play the map won't even be able to tell the difference, they are just going to play the map for what it is. so i really have no problem with all the new features. if anything, build / mapster is a hundred times easier to work with than it used to be ten years ago. not just thanks to things like true room over room but even the most simple adjustements, ie. the ability to adjust sprite sizes in 2D mode or all those little extras that definitely make even the most traditionally-built maps look better (easier accuracy on the mapper's end), and they get done quicker too (i am pretty sure every map that gets released nowadays would have taken five times longer to be made ten years ago). in a community that is, as you rightly said, dwindling daily, i think this is important. regardless of whatever you think of the new features, you have to see beyond the novelty aspect of them, let the players who enjoy the results enjoy them, and stick to building things the way you personally feel like doing it, whatever that might be.

i do agree with the amount of feedback getting much and much smaller though, and about reputation points i seriously never even noticed that going on and i don't really care, whoever pays attention to that stuff has too much time on their hands.

Gambini

For me this community is no longer what it used to be. But I´m not even motivated to talk about that. I still hang around because of inertia and because a couple of loose ends that I should tie.

Micky C

Is part of the lack of response due to the maps themselves? I mean the community's been through the stage of ultra-detailed maps, as well as large open, yet detailed maps like Siege Breaker, now we've gone backwards a bit in terms of detail so there's no longer anything truly surprising or amazing there, and as for gameplay, yeah you can have a little bit of difference and originality here and there, but with the original game's limited resources, and all the user maps that have already been done, how new and exciting can gunplay get?

That's why I invest most of my time in large TCs like WGRealms 2 and the AMC TC, you've got a whole bunch of "new" art, effects, enemies etc which allows you to create relatively original and different levels and gameplay, while at the same time they are available to a potentially much wider audience being standalone TCs, helping a lot with the motivation.

I don't really see myself working on any full vanilla levels anymore. I'm willing to do CBPs or maybe collaborative maps like Parkade, but full maps take way too much time away from study and sociality and who knows how many people end up playing it.

@Gambini, I'd be interested in hearing what you have to say if/when you're motivated to say it, as long as it's not about renderers, we've both been down that road too many times  :P
Wall whore.

Puritan

I'm glad that I disabled the "reputation system" that is a part of this forum software before launch  ;D
Bitter words mean little to me. Autumn winds will blow right through me
And someday in the mist of time, when they asked me if I knew you
I'd smile and say you were a friend of mine, and the sadness would be lifted from my eyes
Oh when I'm old and wise

Sanek

Quote from: ck3D on  05 January 2013, 06:44:29
what you get now with the true room over room hype is the same thing i kind of felt a few years back with dukeplus features and the hrp (but those are examples). for instance i never really understood why project zero got such a high rating on msdn, putting it in the top 5 of the website for several months until Gambini released It Lives! : http://msdn.duke4.net/hotprojectzero.php the map itself was very mediocre in terms of actual design and gameplay interest, and was pretty much a dukeplus demonstration map.
Yea, it's sad too. I don't like attention to the maps that used DukePlus, TROR and Polymer, with very mediocore design, but appreciated, like I said, as summer-movie blockbuster. Project Zero and Eternity were first signs.



Quote from: Micky C on  05 January 2013, 03:40:59
but IMO that makes it all the more important to draw in new (or even old) mappers with new and exciting features like TROR and polymer.
In 2004 we have more than 50 releases without all that new features. Old mappers (who worked in field since the beginning of the century) don't even used all these features (or even never tried to do so).


Quote from: Micky C on  05 January 2013, 08:09:29
That's why I invest most of my time in large TCs like WGRealms 2 and the AMC TC, you've got a whole bunch of "new" art, effects, enemies etc which allows you to create relatively original and different levels and gameplay, while at the same time they are available to a potentially much wider audience being standalone TCs, helping a lot with the motivation.
And you think that parasitize on TC's is much better than to create a map for original game? Is it a key to "success"





ck3D

#10
Quote from: Micky C on  05 January 2013, 08:09:29
Is part of the lack of response due to the maps themselves? I mean the community's been through the stage of ultra-detailed maps, as well as large open, yet detailed maps like Siege Breaker, now we've gone backwards a bit in terms of detail so there's no longer anything truly surprising or amazing there, and as for gameplay, yeah you can have a little bit of difference and originality here and there, but with the original game's limited resources, and all the user maps that have already been done, how new and exciting can gunplay get?

I think you are on a wrong path here, I think maps are better than ever these days, every release is somewhat consistent and i am fairly positive that a map that's released nowadays and scores, say, a 90%, might have scored 95 and over had it come out five years ago. Plus all the new mappers are so talented it is not even funny, you can't even tell if what they are releasing is their first map anymore, it's all professional-looking right off the bat. When I joined the community in the early / mid 2000's everyone's first couple of maps you could easily tell, the learning process was obvious and tedious, now it is so accessible everyone learns so fast. Mapping has progressed beyond belief, to the point where everyone could make the equivalent of a Roch map (still a holy grail not so long ago) and it would barely go noticed. I think your attention is focused way too much on detail and technical novelties for you to have a fair judgement. A map could be bare of all of these and still be more fun to play than most modern releases using all these new features. Hell, over the past couple of years my own maps have gone from uber detailed to pretty much empty rooms, and people still enjoy them. Everyone enjoys a simple, classic map, for the same reason everyone still enjoys Duke Nukem 3D in 2013. Not because it looks like the latest FPS with its emperor's new clothes, but because it looks like Duke Nukem 3D. Everything doesn't need to be a revolution, there is still a lot of people genuinely interested in the original game itself. And to be fair I am sure there is still way, way more things to be thought of, that have never been done in Duke and still completely doable within the limits of the original engine. All it takes is more imagination.

Quotefull maps take way too much time away from study and sociality and who knows how many people end up playing it.

i can feel you on that, although i still take the time to work on full maps every once in a while as a pastime when i am really at the bottom of the bucket and can't find anything else to do. to me it is a kind of art form, i will probably still be doing it when noone plays the game anymore. feedback is obviously really important and it is awesome to see people play and enjoy your levels, but true inspiration and motivation should come from within.

Puritan

To gain some perspective; I every now and then fire up some of the original levels  8)
Bitter words mean little to me. Autumn winds will blow right through me
And someday in the mist of time, when they asked me if I knew you
I'd smile and say you were a friend of mine, and the sadness would be lifted from my eyes
Oh when I'm old and wise

Forge

#12
Quote from: Micky C on  05 January 2013, 08:09:29
Is part of the lack of response due to the maps themselves?

It's what the community has developed into. The map can be the greatest thing ever, or just a run-of-the-mill average release and it's still going to get the same amount of feedback. (of course crappy maps get a lot of feedback because it's fun to slam somebody who makes alot of mistakes) You can blame a fraction of it on that stupid rep system that fosters a lazy mentality of, "oh, they'll see that i up-voted their release post and just know that i enjoyed it". The main part of it is, for lack of better words, a sort of selfishness. Getting something free (a map) without any obligations to give anything meaningful in return. The community takes for granted that a map will get released which equals nothing more than a free game to them. You can go online and get free games all over the internet, and a Duke map is just another source for them. It's all about "gimme-gimme-gimme" with no regard for how much work went into making something for people to enjoy, when the only thing expected in return are a few words describing what they liked/disliked about the release to get a little pride in their work and encouragement to do it again.

Watch the releases dry up, then watch the community start wondering out loud where are all the free maps?
(as immune to the community as Mikko is, he still notices when there have been no new releases for quite awhile, and wonders what the tally at the end of the year will be)

Take it down to the beach with a hammer and pound sand up your ass

Forge

#13
Here's a little something to backup what I'm saying from Duke4:

The releases had dried up over the summer last year then Paul B released Brooklyn Bridge on 11 Oct. It received a substantial feedback (75 replies) because the community was "starved". All of the sudden mappers started pushing out their releases to catch the train and get some of that thunder.

30 Oct Mister Sinister released Grey Lights (19 replies), 1 Nov undertaker releases Brainwash Facility (33 replies)

13 Nov Hangnail releases USS Guan. Bay (7 replies)

24 Nov Paul B releases Atomic Arena (52 replies)

9 Dec Drek releases Knee Deep (31 replies), 14 Dec taivo releases dogville 2012 (17 replies), 19 Dec High Treason releases Riverside Town (18 replies), 22 Dec Sanek releases Lorch (15 replies)

31 Dec ZE releases Duke 2013 (39 replies)

As you can see, in most instances when maps are released within a week or so of each other, the responses suffer for one of the projects or just start tapering off. If there's a dry spell for about two weeks then the map is likely get a semi-decent response (the exception being hangnail's release - don't know if people just missed that one or if it's backlash from the three previous maps released within the month's time frame before it). And as you can see, if the community is deprived of a new map for a few months, new releases get latched onto like a rat on a cheeto. After that they're taken for granted.
Take it down to the beach with a hammer and pound sand up your ass

Sanek

Well, just look at that: DNF 2013 mod got more than 384 (!) replies at Duke4. Just compare that to all usermaps releaed this year and even to EZ's Slender's Woods. It probably proves that only such grand and such popular ideas as DNF E3 trailer remake can draw the audiences. And maybe we just need something like that in maps? I mean the maps that audiences can consider as truly blockbusters. Maps that have a conceptual grandness, with big size and action-driven gameplay, done by big-name mappers with all these new features like TROR and Polymer (and put DukePlus in it!) and even with something new in the code department. Just imagine if there were a map released by Gambini  and ressurected legends like Pascal or Alejandro, with non-stop action and conceptual grandness in it!
Maybe it's all sounds very stupid, but...What do you think about all this?