When community has changed

Started by Sanek, 05 January 2013, 01:54:35

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Forge

#45
Quote from: Hank on  18 May 2014, 05:19:04
@ no one specifically

I remember a thread on 3D Realms web site, asking if anyone actually still uses Build to make maps, because ... now fifteen years later, I still see actual new people on duke4. Moloch posted newbie questions there (3D Realms site) and it ended up as the SST TC. I say just keep the door open to the new people, you never know what will come out of it.
new people are incredibly rare here. most are from dn-r or amc. a few duke4 denizen wander through every once in awhile.
nobody ever gets run off or turned away.
Take it down to the beach with a hammer and pound sand up your ass

Micky C

I think having adequate documentation is one of the key things to bring the newbies in and keep them here.

I probably wouldn't have gotten into mapping myself if the infosuite hadn't existed, and I'm sure that it's been equally important for others.
I'd like to think that my guides on making maps quickly, and what actually constitutes a good map, are helpful for people as well. Same as my TROR mapping guide on the wiki.

If every veteran mapper, before leaving the community, just left a few unique tips or methods that others can use to improve their own work, then those elements can remain in the community rather than being potentially lost forever.

Hell I'd probably get into coding if a decent, self-contained guide for complete noobs was ever available (for eduke's lua since that's the future). There'd probably be more people working with art if the programs for it were more available/easier to use.
Wall whore.


Micky C

Idk it just seems like the tools, or the formats of the guides themselves seem really outdated. The infosuite for example is very easy to read with its consistent illustrations and use of colour in text.

Even mappers like MetHy are still finding new ways to increase the speed of their mapping. So as you can imagine if a newbie can learn all those tips and tricks at the start, they'd be able to produce overall better content and hence be more motivated to continue doing so.
Wall whore.

methy

#49
I think there are at least two reasons as to why we have less mappers and less 'new' mappers as for example the Doom community.  First, Doom mapping by default is a lot easier than Duke's : the limits of the engine reduce the possibilities, and therefore makes things easier. For example in Doom you can only make one type of Door, and you don't have control on the doors speed, sound, or autoclose behaviour; so you have just have to tag the wall as 'door' and that's it, done. Another example : in Doom you don't have wall shading, just sector shading (you can only control the shade value of the sector and it automatically sets it to all its surfaces), you can imagine how limiting that is sure, but you can also imagine how things like that make mapping a LOT more simple and a lot easier.
So my point is, Duke mapping is quite hard to get into by itself; but now if you compare mapster32 to say, Doom Builder 2, you can also realize how a lot more user friendly Doom Builder 2 is. The program looks modern, you have a bar at the top (like in any modern program really) which you can use to go through everything you need to make a map. In comparaison, mapster32 still looks like the original Build; and all the features (even more so all the new fantastic features that make mapster32 so superior compared to build) are hidden in obscure key combinaisons that you really HAVE to know about. I mean, there are some features which have been there for a few years now that I only discovered recently, that shows there is a real problem here.
I also don't find the part about mapster32 in the wiki very userfriendly either (I really don't feel like going through dozens of pages of text that look like they were written by a robot in the hope I may discover a new feature). The infosuite, THAT is something, and I use it all the time.

So my point is not only duke3D mapping not simple per se, but nothing has been done to make it more userfriendly. I mean, mapster32 has added TONS of great fantastic features (and I thank them for that, it really helps a lot) but it's still nothing is done to make those features (as well as the basic ones) more userfriendly. Those features help experience mappers to map in a faster, easier way, and are great for that; but that doesn't make them very user friendly.
So as a consequence, you'd really have to have a lot of dedication to learn to even make a basic duke map. Any of us could use Doom Builder 2 and understand how to make a Doom map with barely looking at a tutorial; but I doubt the contrary could be said (I doubt a Doom mapper could understand mapster32 without tutorials).
I think that's why it's hard to get new mappers.
Plus, when Ancient Coffee Bean (brand new mapper) showed up with a fantastic map, I did everything I could to welcome him; got him to be part of the duke hard episode; and he eventually said he'd rather map for another game now... he also said he didn't feel welcome at all by duke4 when he had a few questions to ask at first.

eduke32 is trying to be as modern as possible and try to reach a broader audiance with hi res textures, 3D models, polymer lighting, and now LUA based con. Well, if you ask me, the next step is to completely re-think how mapster32 looks and works.
http://thisshitaintscary.blogspot.com/ - The only Blog solely dedicated to Horror video games

High Treason

Most of my blame goes on the community, it always has and probably always will treat new members like shit over at Duke4 and even if you have been there for years, don't you dare have an opinion to offer unless it coincides with the in-crowd.

They're kinda cute though, because I really get the impression they believe I care what some dickhead on the internet writes... I don't, but a lot of people do and everyone I know IRL that has been to that forum has had that response; "What a bunch of childish dickheads, I don't know why you go on that forum mate."

Also there's next to no response to releasing a map for many, me included. 6 replies to Nitroglycerin... Two of which were the same guy. Ain't filling me with motivation to make another one, less replies than months spent working on it... At least the replies were positive though. Megaton isn't any better, no comments, no ratings, no nothing on my upload which is why I didn't spend time trying to get Nitro to work on there, especially given that the shitty uploader didn't work properly (wonder if they fixed that?).

I think perhaps more tolerance should be had towards noob maps, whilst I don't expect people to be overjoyed about them they are usually short and I find them interesting as you can usually see a lot of originality and a great deal of potential behind the Tile 0 and huge rooms. At least every one is unique in some way instead of the many BobSP/Red/Duke#:## rip-offs that exist. The few times I have gotten there first to a noob asking questions and have been pleasent about something, they have usually caught on quickly after a little patience and a few attempts at walking them through the archaic behaviours of the editor or scripting language... Sometimes they just don't get it but the threads don't usually deteriorate into the shit throwing that others do.
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Micky C

@MetHy, it's "combinations" and "vehicles". I agree that mapster needs to be made more modern. A new graphical interface with all the different features available would be great. Of course the key combinations would still be there for the older guys, and eventually new comers would start using them to map faster as well, but just knowing that the features are there, and are organised in a logical way that's easy to use, even if it takes a long time to actually do anything with this interface.

I also think mapster should get rid of the 2D/3D switch, and have both on screen at the same time (with the isometric view as an optional third window). The switch is a leftover from a time when screens where small and square, but now we have huge, long thin screens and this would make mapping both faster, and more convenient. Plus it'd be interesting to make changes in 2D mode like dragging points, and see the effect they directly have on the game world in real time.

@High Treason, unfortunately I think it's a smaller group of people who give off this negative vibe, but they post so much that it seems like there are a lot more doing it then there actually is. IMO I think overall people try to be receptive to noob maps, but of course they're always going to give some constructive criticism. I think people do tend to be annoyed though about the occasional noob who continually pumps out quick, crappy maps, bloating the forum, and can't seem to understand why nobody likes them despite repeatedly being told why.
Wall whore.

Puritan

Quote from: methy on  19 May 2014, 13:55:27
The program looks modern, you have a bar at the top (like in any modern program really) which you can use to go through everything you need to make a map. In comparaison, mapster32 still looks like the original Build; and all the features (even more so all the new fantastic features that make mapster32 so superior compared to build) are hidden in obscure key combinaisons that you really HAVE to know about. I mean, there are some features which have been there for a few years now that I only discovered recently


Amen  ;)
Bitter words mean little to me. Autumn winds will blow right through me
And someday in the mist of time, when they asked me if I knew you
I'd smile and say you were a friend of mine, and the sadness would be lifted from my eyes
Oh when I'm old and wise

High Treason

Quote from: Micky C on  19 May 2014, 15:27:00
@High Treason, unfortunately I think it's a smaller group of people who give off this negative vibe, but they post so much that it seems like there are a lot more doing it then there actually is. IMO I think overall people try to be receptive to noob maps, but of course they're always going to give some constructive criticism. I think people do tend to be annoyed though about the occasional noob who continually pumps out quick, crappy maps, bloating the forum, and can't seem to understand why nobody likes them despite repeatedly being told why.

That's about correct, but unfortunately nobody polices that small group. I can guarantee that if I behaved that way I would be banned immediately, I've been thrown out of there for less. There's nothing wrong with constructive criticism but people have a bad way of delivering it. As for people who just churn out shitty maps, I always thought that was just one guy coming back and trollin' under different names. My solution to those is to simply ignore them, eventually the noob will run out of things to post and his threads will fall off the bottom of the board, perhaps he will leave or he might just go away and come up with something better realizing where he is going wrong.

To be honest, some people in the community are pathetic and clearly have no idea about the real world. Once the beta shit has died down I'm going back to how I was before; Visit the forum once a week to check for releases, go back when I have something to release. Don't get me wrong though, I think the majority of the people there are OK, just sucks that a small number have to ruin it.
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Hank

Quote from: High Treason on  19 May 2014, 15:03:40
Most of my blame goes on the community, it always has and probably always will treat new members like shit over at Duke4 and even if you have been there for years, don't you dare have an opinion to offer unless it coincides with the in-crowd.
Truthfully, I started badly there too. You can track my first posts, but this was a long time ago, and you and I had sort of a fight :D

Still duke4 reflects homo sapience in it's full spectrum. The are ready to crucify you and turn around and pamper you silly. That's why I love this forum, because it is not moderated. But above all, I doubt anyone there is taking it serious, it's just a hang out, where you can be silly, troll a bit or get down to business.
Since I am there, I've got two free legit games from new found friends, (never mind all those 'borrowed' one's); they've got me hooked into 3D modelling and believe it or not Unity 3d.

Here is what I do, ignore shit posts, and upvote randomly whenever I feel like.

@Forge - I know you guys won't turn people away, but I think a link should be at Steam Duke Megaton, so potential new mappers can get into it.
Lieber reich und gesund als arm und krank

ck3D

#55
Quote from: Forge on  12 May 2014, 20:56:45
I guarantee if the community is still alive for another ten years people will mention MRCK but won't have a clue who the hell Forge is. That's just the way of things.

you are probably going to disagree with me on this (and we will probably keep disagreeing back and forth, for we both seem to look at our own, respective mapping work under the same realistic light) but personally and quite honestly, i am under the pretty certain impression that after their respective releases, your maps quickly became popular to a much wider audience (especially amongst the 'latest generation' of players) than mine. i really don't think anyone gives a shit about what i might be working on or releasing these days, besides a few old-timers who were around 'in my time', and the most 'core' mapping fiends who have been following me for a while and thus can still appreciate my style for what it is (and they are far and few between nowadays due to how unorthodox my stuff has become). my levels used to get some hype in the past (for good and bad reasons), whereas in modern times, according to what i got, and to this day still get to read on message boards, your map series seems to have become quite a legacy. i may have been 'around' for longer, to most people i am pretty washed-up. noone ever mentions my maps as works of references or turning points in the mapping history besides the few individuals i was referring to in my previous statement. on the other hand, i see lots of people talking about your x:xx series as landmarks, and embodiment of the modern mapping style (with a personal twist). and the ones who haven't got to play your maps still know you from your reviews. further down the line i can imagine you being remembered amongst the community more than i ever will. i feel like a stupid college bitch in a popularity contest now, and it all doesn't matter at all really because actually i am more than fine with the option of just doing my thing for myself, regardless whether or not it is going to get attention. it allows me to feel free to experiment a lot more and i feel a lot less pressure than i would when i was younger and people were actually expecting stuff from my maps every time i would announce a release. As you rightfully said :

QuoteWe're content over here in our nice quiet corner of the community. Too bad for everyone else who isn't interested in the old stuff.

Micky C

Maybe I've been looking in all the wrong places but I don't recall people talking about Forge's maps in that kind of light. That doesn't mean they're not really good though. The detail is above average and I agree that they're a good example of modern maps.

Of course I've never, ever heard anyone say "whoa, did you play that map by Micky C? Had some super cool stuff in there! I wish more maps were like that". Then again I haven't released any full sized vanilla maps in a few years, not counting CBPs and mini maps.
Wall whore.

Forge

#57
Quote from: Micky C on  01 June 2014, 07:08:26
Maybe I've been looking in all the wrong places but I don't recall people talking about Forge's maps in that kind of light.
yea. i must be hanging out in the wrong places too. I've never heard mention of my work as anything other than being some kind of Gambini-Pascal hybrid clone. Funny because I was inspired by MRCK and WilliamG and none of my efforts look anything like their work. I've made some interesting sprite architectural construction, but so have many others before me. 
People are more likely to remember me for doing reviews than the fact that i made a couple of maps. Not really a hot topic of discussion anytime. Unless I'm not looking in the right spot I haven't seen too many discussions along the lines of, "Hey, did you see the write up Kim Robinson did on map X?"

Quote from: Micky C on  01 June 2014, 07:08:26
Of course I've never, ever heard anyone say "whoa, did you play that map by Micky C? Had some super cool stuff in there! I wish more maps were like that". Then again I haven't released any full sized vanilla maps in a few years, not counting CBPs and mini maps.
You're in the same boat as James Stanfield. People recognize and acknowledge your work, but so much of it is tied up in big projects and at times with multiple people involved. Lines get blurred when it comes to giving credit to individuals. When there are very few examples of solo stand alone maps, there's little for the casual player to focus on.
Take it down to the beach with a hammer and pound sand up your ass