BobSP4 release thread.

[bobaverill]

http://depositfiles.com/files/gus5rh8og

It's as complete as I can imagine making it. There's nothing, to my knowledge, that I've left out or that needs fixing. If you guys want to have a couple of playthroughs and tell me if anything is obviously broken before I send it to Mikko, please do.

In particular read the notes at the bottom of the included TXT. They detail what I hope to accomplish with this map.

Finally, post your detailed impressions of the map here, I love to read feedback.

[Forge]

first comment:
your choice of file hosting sites leaves something to be desired

[attachment deleted by admin]

[bobaverill]

first comment:
your choice of file hosting sites leaves something to be desired

My apologies. Any thoughts on the map?

[Forge]

concept-wise it's interesting. i've seen several that use space or underwater themes in a similar fashion, but it's usually one big indoor section then one big outdoor section, or two indoor sections with one outdoor section in between.

atmosphere is good
construction is a bit sloppy in places
- the player can jump out of the subway car right away instead of waiting for it to get to the rec center and then swim around to get a scuba tank - then clip through the sprite door to get back into the station - or just go exploring and find the blue key right off the bat
-the player can get stuck in the hydroponics facility by swimming up through the sprite floor (but there is a small section of sprite wall that can get clipped through to escape)
-one or two of the sewage drain sprites on the partially destroyed spaceship are view aligned instead of wall aligned & there are a few sprites (like the tables down by the blue key) that can be "stood" on to conserve air (it's also a fast way to the bottom of the canyon - if you can get over one of those sprites just right Duke will fall)
-more sprite based door clipping issues in the building on the far side of the chasm where the special object keys are used
-there really is no strong lighting-shading contrasts - everything seems washed and has no depth

game play wise it's pretty tough
- you left alot of space for the player to explore and waste a good portion of their limited air
-it can be confusing on how to get into some of the buildings or exactly which building they need to go to next (it's pretty hard to see the red lock)
^both these combined made me have to try about three times to get through without drowning (i like to explore and it's my downfall with this map)
-ammo/supply/alien ratio was pretty good & enemy placement was basically dictated by the design of the level
-never did figure out how to get the yellow key (but i did cheat when i reached the end and went back to see what was behind that locked door - not very nice since they clip outside and you can't get rid of them all - but funny none the less)

[bobaverill]

"concept-wise it's interesting. i've seen several that use space or underwater themes in a similar fashion, but it's usually one big indoor section then one big outdoor section, or two indoor sections with one outdoor section in between. "

Exactly. I'd never seen it done this way and I want to play more maps in this style. It's why I've put this one out there in the hopes that someone else can do it better. There are lots of settings where the "Huge explorable hostile environment, handful of small densely detailed safe havens" formula works. I'd love to see a Lunar landscape + moonbases map done this way for instance.

As for the rest, those are fair criticisms. Some of the design decisions you call sloppy were deliberate however and I'd like to explain my reasoning.

"- the player can jump out of the subway car right away instead of waiting for it to get to the rec center and then swim around to get a scuba tank - then clip through the sprite door to get back into the station - or just go exploring and find the blue key right off the bat"

The subway thing is not fixable as it is not possible in the BUILD engine to have a door which closes and opens on a moving vehicle. I could have enclosed it in a glass corridor, but I really liked that because BUILD is sector based, you can have moving air-filled vehicles surrounded by water. This is extremely difficult to impossible in a properly 3D engine as the water is brush based and would enter the vehicle the moment it moves. In the end I decided the cool factor of the docking sub-train was worth the confusing open doorway. I did at least add a forcefield in an attempt to explain why water does not rush in.

The blue key being collectable out of order was deliberate. I felt a wide open map like this should be at least somewhat nonlinear. It is still impossible to complete the map without both the AI chip and the fusion detonator, so grabbing the blue key early doesn't 'break' anything.

"-the player can get stuck in the hydroponics facility by swimming up through the sprite floor (but there is a small section of sprite wall that can get clipped through to escape)"

Yes, this sucks. Sprite constructs tend to be a little glitchy when it comes to player collision.

"-one or two of the sewage drain sprites on the partially destroyed spaceship are view aligned instead of wall aligned & there are a few sprites (like the tables down by the blue key) that can be "stood" on to conserve air (it's also a fast way to the bottom of the canyon - if you can get over one of those sprites just right Duke will fall)"

I'll go through and fix the sprite alignment, but the fact that Duke adheres to flattened sprites while underwater is part of the engine that I can do nothing to fix. I have attempted to explain it via "magnetic boots" in the text file.

"-there really is no strong lighting-shading contrasts - everything seems washed and has no depth"

This is true, and difficult to avoid because of the wall limit and sheer size of the map. I did add some complex shadows in the prison, and wherever there's overhead lighting there exists a decent gradient effect. I wish I could have done more but again, engine limits.

"- you left alot of space for the player to explore and waste a good portion of their limited air"

Intentionally. There are also air refill stations all over the place, and searching for them adds tension. The air refill stations have a little yellow light at the top that's fullbright, so it can be seen from a distance. It tells you to look for this in the text file.

"-it can be confusing on how to get into some of the buildings or exactly which building they need to go to next (it's pretty hard to see the red lock)"
^both these combined made me have to try about three times to get through without drowning (i like to explore and it's my downfall with this map)"

That's fair, but because everything is palette 1 outside I'm not sure how to make the keycard receptacle stand out. The exploration is exactly the point of this map, I hope you enjoyed that aspect. The monitors are fairly clear as to where to go next, but that does require the player to read rather than skim them.

"-never did figure out how to get the yellow key (but i did cheat when i reached the end and went back to see what was behind that locked door - not very nice since they clip outside and you can't get rid of them all - but funny none the less)"

HEHEHEHEHE. }:D  The yellow key is reachable using the jetpack, which you take off of the body of the astronaut in the far corner of the map where the sunken space shuttle is.


So, judging by the ratio of praise to criticism, is it safe to conclude that you dislike the map? I am contemplating starting over from scratch. Although really I am content with it not being terribly good provided it inspires copycats who can do the concept justice.

[Forge]

So, judging by the ratio of praise to criticism, is it safe to conclude that you dislike the map? I am contemplating starting over from scratch. Although really I am content with it not being terribly good provided it inspires copycats who can do the concept justice.

i liked it. i was adhering to your first post

If you guys want to have a couple of playthroughs and tell me if anything is obviously broken before I send it to Mikko, please do.

The subway thing is not fixable

okay. i hope you realize that i "exploited" the map to get back into the original station and if the player decides to jump out and doesn't know this trick they'll be locked out of the rec center thus rendering that part of the map unnecessary.

The blue key being collectable out of order was deliberate.

it didn't "break" anything other than i saved a back-forth trip and conserved some air

"-the player can get stuck in the hydroponics facility

Yes, this sucks. Sprite constructs tend to be a little glitchy when it comes to player collision.

surround the bottom of the hydroponics station with invisible blocking sprites to prevent the player from swimming under it and getting stuck
-or double floor it. make the original set one-sided oriented downward facing, then one tick up put in the normal two-sided secondary sprite floor

I have attempted to explain it via "magnetic boots" in the text file.

i was wondering what you were talking about in the text

Intentionally. There are also air refill stations all over the place, and searching for them adds tension.

lots of open space is a good thing (for me). i like exploring

That's fair, but because everything is palette 1 outside I'm not sure how to make the keycard receptacle stand out.

outline it with something (blinking lights, striped border, whatever)

The yellow key is reachable using the jetpack

damn. i swam right through there. i probably picked it up without even noticing. most likely the scuba icon popped back up too fast

about the view screens - yes they would say something like..."now go to the prison.." -or some such thing-
problem is there's no big flashing neon sign telling me which of the other locations is the prison
is it the building to the left, to the right, or the one on the other side of the map?...etc.

but i suppose that's part of the experience..swimming out to buildings to figure out what they are then how to get in.
drowned and had to restart a few times, but i can brush that off.

[methy]

I've got both the blue and red card but since then I've been turning in round for a long time not knowing where to go.

From underwater, through windows, I saw a door in a building which seemed to be keycard protected but I couldn't figure out how to get into that building.

Any help?

[Forge]

once you get the red key card from the prison you're supposed to go to the building next door (the one where you can see the blue lock through the window from outside) and unlock the sub-access door (which is on the opposite side of the building from the windows and down towards the bottom)

the lock is really hard to see and is not traditionally placed to the left or right of the door, but below it

[Merlijn]

Based on these comments, I was expecting this to be a *lot* harder. But I only drowned once, after I figured out where the scuba gear refill stations were it became a lot easier.

Anyway, very good map, it's too bad flat sprites act glitchy underwater (I had the same problem in red5), but I guess it would compromise the design too much to remove all those spriteworks. The overall concept was great and well executed though.

Some of those special keycards (the AI chip and fusion degenerator) can be seen as lowered sprites before they're activated. This is because they're in a small sector, and the sprite overlaps the surrounding sectors. It can be fixed by making that sector wider and very thin.

I had no trouble locating the red keylock, or any of the entrances, but it seems I'm the only one so far.

PS: good choise of music, it fits the map very well. Now that song is stuck in my head though. 

[methy]

To be honest I find the map progression very annoying. That keycard slot was too hard to find. Then, once inside, it tells me to go explode the Aliens base underwater? Okay but where is that.... i don't feel like spending another 10-15 mins circling through all the underwater area slowly all over again.

[bobaverill]

To be honest I find the map progression very annoying. That keycard slot was too hard to find. Then, once inside, it tells me to go explode the Aliens base underwater? Okay but where is that.... i don't feel like spending another 10-15 mins circling through all the underwater area slowly all over again.

I've added blinking lights under the keycard slot to the new revision of the map I've sent in to a few sites for reviews. As for being forced to explore to find things, that's what I thought would be fun about the map. It is definitely not for speedrunners. :p

[methy]

I've added blinking lights under the keycard slot to the new revision of the map I've sent in to a few sites for reviews. As for being forced to explore to find things, that's what I thought would be fun about the map. It is definitely not for speedrunners. :p

I found the exploring fun at first, especially going down all the way to the bottom. But after a while it feels tedious.

[bobaverill]

I found the exploring fun at first, especially going down all the way to the bottom. But after a while it feels tedious.

Fair enough. The Alien base is awfully big target to miss though. This is a map that punishes the inattentive (i.e. if you were to head straight for the alien base after reading the command center monitor, without first reading the armory monitor, you would find it sealed with force fields.)

What did you like?

[DavoX]

Finnally yes!!

I didn't know where to go in the intro (duh!) so I crouched in front of the two scuba and I accidentally went inside that room...

[DavoX]

I'm stuck.. I picked some kind of motherboard chip and I can't place it on the CO2 slot... before this I opened the blue card for the armory and I guess I picked something, maybe? it's an empty slot just like the one for the chip... there were 2 chips? I picked it by accident? did I break something?