[RELEASE] Delta Station Down

[Forge]

That's not what I said. I said there is an amount of changes you can do, and if those changes aren't too much (some new art, some new code), it's still dn3D.

your limit and my limit of acceptable changes are at two different levels.
new art, same gameplay mechanics & everything else=duke3d

i personally prefer 8 bit, but i don't snub HRP, user art, or polymer if they're recommended/required, and i enjoy them for the extra bit of eye candy they provide when they're intentionally implemented

[LeoD]

If the .art tiles are going to be overridden I don't see how this project can continue the way I want it to. I'm a n00b when it comes to con and def files and even how to use them, and this is all getting complicated to the level where it's starting to get discouraging. I could just say 'classic only' if I want to be sure people will see it the right way.

No need to be discouraged at all. Your ART file set still runs fine with the current HRP. Once real problems should arise I'm sure you'll find someone willing to help you out either here or at Duke4.net. (Simply add my duke3d.def to your ZIP and the not-yet-existing mugshot issue would be solved for good.)
I assume you only use a rather small subset of the textures contained in your ART files. Remapping the conflicting ones to other tile numbers would be a solution that could take care of DukePlus incompatibilities, too. (I don't know enough about using Mapster and using Mapster-scripts to be helpful on this one.)
And remember that only a minority of Dukers play any CON-less maps with DukePlus. And among those I suppose the majority to be smart enough to know why these few bulldozer-issues happen and that they're willing to live with that.

[methy]

new art, same gameplay mechanics & everything else=duke3d

i personally prefer 8 bit, but i don't snub HRP, user art, or polymer if they're recommended/required, and i enjoy them for the extra bit of eye candy they provide when they're intentionally implemented

Then by this logic the TCs we mentionned, or even Redneck Rampage, ARE duke3D, even though they only share the same engine and base code.
I played duke nukem eternity and I enjoyed it (despite the awful framerate issues at times even on my new computer) but I didn't see it as being duke3D.
But if I'm given the choice (which reflex clearly did saying hrp was recommended because it was his preference; which isn't the same thing as a mod being hrp only like dne), i'd rather play without. Playing with the HRP rather than without when given the choice is like playing the Russian fan made eduke32-based version of Blood rather than the actual game, it's off. You might like it better, but you can't deny it's not the actual game.
But that's not saying I'm ditching them because they are not the 'real thing', that's saying they're not the real thing AND I don't like them.

Sorry for the off-topic, this map is great.

[reflex17]

No need to be discouraged at all. Your ART file set still runs fine with the current HRP. Once real problems should arise I'm sure you'll find someone willing to help you out either here or at Duke4.net. (Simply add my duke3d.def to your ZIP and the not-yet-existing mugshot issue would be solved for good.)
I assume you only use a rather small subset of the textures contained in your ART files. Remapping the conflicting ones to other tile numbers would be a solution that could take care of DukePlus incompatibilities, too. (I don't know enough about using Mapster and using Mapster-scripts to be helpful on this one.)
And remember that only a minority of Dukers play any CON-less maps with DukePlus. And among those I suppose the majority to be smart enough to know why these few bulldozer-issues happen and that they're willing to live with that.

I'm the kind of person that if even a few people end up with bulldozers where red lights should be, I can't stand that. I suppose it can't be helped, the HRP and DukePlus are cool addons and it's up to me to just try and make sure as many users as possible have a good end-result. If a few bulldozers have to happen for a few people, ah well, I guess that's the way it is.

Moving forward I guess the best thing for me to do is delete my HRP content and re-download it to make sure it'll be up-to-date, I noticed the link in your sig for the HRP polymost, so I'm sure that will help. Thanks a lot for the .def file, I'll include that in any future maps using this art content. It's true I've only used a few of the custom textures out of all that's there, but I do plan to use most of them as the project develops. I have names and concepts for a bunch of other levels using this theme.

[Forge]

even Redneck Rampage, ARE duke3D, even though they only share the same engine and base code.

so it's one extreme or the other, no middle ground for you? everything is black and white.

i see shades of grey - and this Duke3D map looks good with HRP

[reflex17]

Redneck Rampage has chickens. If you put a chicken in Duke3d then it's Duke3d with a chicken. If you make all new levels and art and the base code is built upon to make a new game, then you have a new game. When you make all new art and code but it still requires Duke3d, or even if it's a standalone, it can be considered a TC if it's unrecognizable, especially. Duke3d is Duke3d, and Duke3d with HRP is Duke3d with 'new graphics', and falls outside of what could be considered a mod or TC. Sure it's a mod in the strict sense but one that tries, I'm sure, to at least capture the feel of the original game. You could argue if it captures the original feeling or not, some people think so, others don't. I think we can all agree that Redneck Rampage is not Duke3d and that the HRP vs. classic argument is old and won't get solved anytime soon. I really want my map to look good to anyone who plays it, but I am extremely concerned with only wanting to make maps. I guess I'll try to fix any problems as they crop up.

[LeoD]

Redneck Rampage has chickens. If you put a chicken in Duke3d then it's Duke3d with a chicken.

Perfect. Added to my signature.

[reflex17]

Perfect. Added to my signature.

AHAHA My knowledge is deep and wide, especially when it comes to chickens. Chinese zodiac sign is "Metal Rooster" *bows*

Progress goes well on the update, all sprites are now aligned properly and I've started adding viewscreens to LTTM which will have science files and personnel logs which should contribute to atmosphere/storyline across both levels. I'll check out the sky again soon and try to fix that once and for all.

[reflex17]

Technical issue, any help is appreciated: So it turns out I had HRP 5.3 zipped on my HD, no idea why I didn't unpack it. I extracted the files thinking that anything that needed to be overwritten would be taken care of, but it appeared that a large amount of the textures are undefined. Mapster's startup log also has tons of errors, too many to post, most dealing with textures/models/maphacks. I deleted the 'highres' folder in Duke3d directory and extracted 5.3 again, and the problem is still there. Certain high res textures are present while others are not, it seems to be a conflict between versions but I can't explain it.

See attached screenshot, only stock textures are affected:

[LeoD]

The HRP is not meant to be unzipped.
Delete all that unpacked stuff, any highres, highpal, maphack folders and *.def files (except "mine").
Create a folder named autoload and put duke3d_hrp.zip (and duke3d_polymost_hrp_override-5.3.565.zip) into it.
Get the latest EDuke32/Mapster32 from http://dukeworld.duke4.net/eduke32/synthesis/.
Just to be cautious: save backups of your maps before opening them in the new Mapster32.
In the startup window check the Enable "autoload" folder option and set Custom game content directory to "none".
If you still have problems post your full eduke32.log/mapster32.log as attachment.

[Puritan]

You're very helpful Leo 
Oh and welcome aboard.

[LeoD]

Oh and welcome aboard.

Hehe, these forums surely aren't the ideal place for an HRP apologist like me.
But joining was the only option to contact reflex17 who is working on a project which I very much appreciate. I have a bad feeling that I'm about to stick my nose in yet one more cup of Duke3D-ish worms, but I can't help doing it.

[Forge]

reflex17 who is working on a project which I very much appreciate.

ditto

Hehe, these forums surely aren't the ideal place for an HRP apologist like me.
I have a bad feeling that I'm about to stick my nose in yet one more cup of Duke3D-ish worms, but I can't help doing it.

i'll probably never make a level specific for HRP or Dukeplus, just not something i find interest in, but I do enjoy playing the maps that are created specifically for them.
That made me the closest thing around here to a mod supporter who visits the site regularly.
My opinion, this place needed someone like you who is actually a subject matter expert to help people.
Not that these types of assistance requests come up often here, but being quite a bit smaller than Duke4 it's kind of like comparing a classroom of 10 kids versus a classroom of a hundred kids. There is less random blurting and the "students" get more individual attention.

[LeoD]

someone like you who is actually a subject matter expert

If certain people knew what I do not know about subject matter, my HRP repository account might get deleted.
It usually feels like I'm just one millimeter ahead of the guys I'm trying to support.

[reflex17]

The HRP is not meant to be unzipped.
Delete all that unpacked stuff, any highres, highpal, maphack folders and *.def files (except "mine").
Create a folder named autoload and put duke3d_hrp.zip (and duke3d_polymost_hrp_override-5.3.565.zip) into it.
Get the latest EDuke32/Mapster32 from http://dukeworld.duke4.net/eduke32/synthesis/.
Just to be cautious: save backups of your maps before opening them in the new Mapster32.
In the startup window check the Enable "autoload" folder option and set Custom game content directory to "none".
If you still have problems post your full eduke32.log/mapster32.log as attachment.

EDIT: Turns out the main problem was I forgot to overwrite the .GRP file like it says to do on the HRP site. Clearing stuff out will help in the future I'm sure. So it looks like I'm up-to-date on the HRP, I can now go in and fix the angled items etc.

Yes welcome to the board and thanks very much for all of your help. You will be credited fully in the txt for the .def as well as crucial assistance during development. Further help should be minimal I hope, this episode has been from the outset quite basic in technical terms, only needing new art. Down the line I'd like to chain them together and rename them in-game, but for now putting them out one-by-one is just fine.

I have reactivated my account at duke4.net and I'll post there as soon as these updates to the 2 maps are complete, shouldn't take too much time.

All the feedback from forums and reviews has been really beneficial and I'm honestly surprised at the reception of both maps being so overwhelmingly positive. I'm a bit of a hermit and I regret not taking part in the community more, but rest assured I play most maps at one time or other and very much enjoy them all. Seeing some threads about 3dr made me think about game development as a hobby/job and when it comes down to it, I commend every single member of this community for their work in bringing and sharing entertainment with one another.

I thought of this episode in 1998 and while it's bothersome that it's taken so long to get levels out, it's an important project to me and the best is intentionally yet to come. I can understand why one might like the gameplay of the first map over the 2nd, for this story the maze had to come before the straight path. They are deliberate opposites, and I plan for the next map to combine the nonlinear elements of LTTM with the scope of DSD, closing the first trilogy.

Again thanks to everyone for the feedback and assistance. I hope to post again soon with the updates.