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Author Topic: Idea ?  (Read 7642 times)

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Forge

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Re: Idea ?
« Reply #15 on: December 14, 2014, 05:08:48 PM »

Alright now

nobody's attacking or complaining about the reviews directly. The point is that multiple reviews provide a better cross-section of perspectives. I agree with this.

Multiple reviews are welcome and encouraged, but until somebody besides myself for SP & Duke64 for DM steps up, what you see is what you get.

If Puritan decides to start doing SP/DM map, Mod/TC/Episode of the year, then either use our scores, or toss the idea out. The 5-star system is exploitable via proxy, so there's really not any other viable options.

-edit: unless someone can come up with a reasonable nomination process (that doesn't involve a buddy system or using said scores) and a poll that also can't be abused.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2014, 05:38:57 PM by Forge »
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Duke64Nukem

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Re: Idea ?
« Reply #16 on: December 14, 2014, 06:10:50 PM »

Though I am reviewing some dm maps I could easily do some sp maps and if I ever did I would try best to keep with the pace of quality standards. I just think I would rather leave that up to you Forge you have done a great job staying on top of releases on here on Duke4 and even steam workshop for example Delusional review added today it's not about the score given it's the fact that you guys play these maps and stay on top of it like it's paying the bills. I see no problem with how you review and the total scores are pretty similar and quite close to MSDN scores so I imagine there is a standard for quality.

Yeah I did not think of that yet on how best mod or episode of the year could be chosen, I think it should go with your scores since it would be on this site why not use what is here. I just think well look at what Methy did to keep Duke Hard on the ground and take off that was obviously alot of work most people don't want to do that much work there should be reward for that type of work even if it's just a pat on the back as this would be the end result. As for highest reviewed maps of the year that would be easier to set up if the mappers could just look at it as motivation and just another additional "fun" thing to look at like M.o.M instead of having a "that should be my map there" mentality. I just thought maybe adding more "eye candy" to the site might be pretty cool :)

By the way I love the it's snowing effect on the site Puritan, right when I noticed it (few days ago) it actually started snowing on me while I was outside on the porch with laptop how ironic I was like huh those are real snow flakes xD
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quakis

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Re: Idea ?
« Reply #17 on: December 14, 2014, 07:06:32 PM »

[...] more seriously than the reviewers themselves which is obviously bound to get on their nerves after a while

I always find it funny how discussions about reviews always seem to focus purely on the ratings; not just the Duke community but gaming in general. People seem far too obsessive discussing, or even arguing, about the provided score and often ignore the write up. Its one of many reasons I abolished use of ratings on my site, instead focusing on the writing quality. This has since resulted in much healthier feedback.

-edit: unless someone can come up with a reasonable nomination process (that doesn't involve a buddy system or using said scores) and a poll that also can't be abused.

I'm fine with how the Doomworld Cacowards are processed. Not based off scores or an automated system, but a small dedicated group of suitable people to discuss amongst themselves, coming to a consensus about the 'top 10' releases & any runner ups and finally writing a small piece on each selection.
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Arghantyl

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Re: Idea ?
« Reply #18 on: December 14, 2014, 09:58:13 PM »

Anyway if the goal is to émulate the mappers community,i think than little tounaments would be a better tool.
Competiting maps with a specific theme and a limited number of sectors/sprites could make the job.

By exemple : Theme :Daily urban city;500 sectors/500 sprites;4 months.

And then ask to Forge Duke'4 people to vote them.
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Forge

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Re: Idea ?
« Reply #19 on: December 15, 2014, 02:45:46 AM »

I always find it funny how discussions about reviews always seem to focus purely on the ratings;
yup. that's pretty much what that little sig under my post relates to

Not based off scores or an automated system, but a small dedicated group of suitable people to discuss amongst themselves, coming to a consensus about the 'top 10' releases & any runner ups and finally writing a small piece on each selection.
for this site; we're right back to Puritan, Duke64, and myself. Might as well use the scores.
*see below comments

And then ask to Duke'4 people to vote them.
HA! No.
No disrespect to Duke4, but that'd involve too much politics, the buddy system, and too many 'unpredictable' forum denizen.
Internal business should be handled internally.


First, if there's some kind of question about the impartiality of the three people involved in this site (I scored that map higher than the rest, so obviously that's the one that's going to win because that will justify the score I gave it - personally i could care less, I don't remember the score i gave something about ten minutes after I submit it). That means there needs to be some kind of annual 'panel of judges' nominated - you figure out the details for that.

Second you now need a panel of 'map/TC nominators'. They can't be the same people as the judges, so as to keep some impartiality factor in place. - you figure out the details for that.

How many categories will there be?  One for DM, one for SP, one for TC/Mod? The nominators and judges all have to be able to play these modes (you also have to consider some of the nominations may require HRP or polymer).

Now you need to figure out a scoring system and a set of rules with provisions for deadlocks/disagreements.

Tha'ts just to get it off the ground, there'll be other nuances and details that need to be worked out
« Last Edit: December 15, 2014, 02:47:32 AM by Forge »
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Duke64Nukem

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Re: Idea ?
« Reply #20 on: December 15, 2014, 08:22:03 AM »

Never thought of it to be some kind of a competition or a big deal I would rather see some mappers make a team project then compete. I just had a thought of CGS doing a small awards section as a sign of appreciation plus something cool and interesting to view, and simply using the reviews from here not anything else(see how I called them "reviews" and not "scores"). I would have posted idea on duke4 if I  did not mean using this sites material! My idea has went complex and misconstrued. Here is what I meant... Make a tab then name it "kick ass year" on CGS (of course i'm Just using an example what to call it) when you click that tab you can see top 5 maps, top 1 episode, top 1 mod/tc, and top 1 DM map of the year. Automated! by the site if that's possible to do for each section, I am no sure but any of the options would add to viewing purpose. Could add some flavor on what to view when visiting here. It isn't necessary to do but I think it would be pretty bad ass :D
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Arghantyl

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Re: Idea ?
« Reply #21 on: December 15, 2014, 12:14:07 PM »

 I tought about duke4 only because there's more people.Didn t know about dramas.

Also for the "Troika" 's review :
I ve never personally had a big problem.
The difference between my judgement (rating +comment) and yours have never been so huge to give me the urgent need  to write.

Also ,i think than many people complain about the score and not what is written.
I personnally think than a rating on a scale of 10 points instead of 100 would be paradoxically more accurate and peaceful.
It's human to think than work of other people deserved less points and ours are under rated.

From another side,i think than the number of downloads are more rewarding and i take as a challenge to create something wich will deserve 99 points.
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Duke64Nukem

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Re: Idea ?
« Reply #22 on: December 16, 2014, 08:10:26 AM »

i take as a challenge to create something wich will deserve 99 points.
That is actually a good way of looking at it, it feeds the fire of getting better rather then splashing water on our own flames. In a way, and in there own way the scores are important to the mappers and in my opinion are in good hands of people who don't take them to seriously yet have a standard, and even I hope to put something out there with enough quality matched with fun to be considered 99 someday :D
for this site; we're right back to Puritan, Duke64, and myself. Might as well use the scores.
Yes use the scores from here automation if others would like to do there own with some of the ideas iv'e seen that would be cool to I would check it out and i'm sure others would to but my idea was based for here using these reviews/scores and not something that would take a bunch of work keep in mind year ends in a few days to.
if there's some kind of question about the impartiality of the three people involved in this site (I scored that map higher than the rest, so obviously that's the one that's going to win because that will justify the score I gave it) personally i could care less, I don't remember the score i gave something about ten minutes after I submit it
I'm not so clear on what this means exactly I even searched the definition of impartiality even though I knew what it meant to try and get a better view on what was said. But if it means that some could possibly think you rated my maps higher because I am friends with you and part of this site or if you do that for anyone in general that is ridiculous. If that was the case come on Forge hook me up with a 99 score better yet can we make it the lone 100 score? xD

Anyway from the info I gathered "Duke Craft" by Zykov would be number 1 with a score of 96 in 2014 (so far) on CGS maps section and points to "what I meant" with all of this from the start. Some people don't just do the extra yard they do an extra 10 and deserve recognition and a high five. I'm not going to say the rest of the order, that's why there is a system so it can do the job right because I could have easily over looked a higher scoring map I could be wrong there's far to many to look through which is a good thing.
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Forge

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Re: Idea ?
« Reply #23 on: December 16, 2014, 02:57:28 PM »

I'm not so clear on what this means exactly
it means that if Puritan, myself, and you are given a list of maps that have been reviewed here and we're supposed to pick a winner, then naturally I'm just going to say, "pick X because I gave it the highest score". Since we're all 'buddies' here and do all that partying behind the scenes, you and Puritan will simply agree without any further debate.
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Duke64Nukem

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Re: Idea ?
« Reply #24 on: December 16, 2014, 06:09:14 PM »

Okay cool :D well all I meant with this thing was to use the sites material and have a little section for it. Although, all the ideas iv'e read could make it a bigger event like Doom awards and such and those don't sound like bad ideas either. But it sounds like could be for another day and place but it's something that needs to be planned out really clean and could take a lot of time and work. As you just stated a few things it would take to get something like that off the ground there is even more to go through to have a full on "official" awards.
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Micky C

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Re: Idea ?
« Reply #25 on: December 21, 2014, 02:47:04 PM »

I'm fine with how the Doomworld Cacowards are processed. Not based off scores or an automated system, but a small dedicated group of suitable people to discuss amongst themselves, coming to a consensus about the 'top 10' releases & any runner ups and finally writing a small piece on each selection.

The thing is though do we really produce enough content so as to justify a Cacowards equivallent? We probably only get about 20 proper maps a year (not sure how much we should be counting stuff from the steam workshop generation, but chances are 95% of that stuff wouldn't make the cut anyway). So it'd be pretty easy to guess what maps would win, even for people not familar with the user content scene (They can always skim though the highest rated or most downloaded maps on these review sites, or even skim though each years' content).
Plus we only have like 1 or 2 mods a year if we're lucky, depending on your definition of mod.

Like it's been said, if there'd be a small number of dedicated people making the decisions, we'd just end up with those who already review the maps and then you might as well look at the scores again.

Then again it'd be pretty interesting if Forge, Mikko, and some third guy not from either site "sat down" and decided on the top 5 or some similarly small number maps from each year. In terms of mods, probably the number 1 mod of the year should be sufficient, however it should be flexible so if there are 2 similarly good mods they should both be talked about (or no mods mentioned if the only mods are crap).

people change with time and someone's opinion on mapping nowadays might (and most likely will) be different from the same person's opinion on mapping six months, one year, five years ago. and noone ever re-adjusts the scores in the older reviews according to their current standards, so you really can't compare two reviews written by the same person on a fair basis if they have been written too far apart in time

I agree. The "highest standard" rose over the years as mappers continually redefined high detail levels and conceptual grandness. If the standard changes, but the actual numerical scale is constant, then you have no choice but to change the score you'd give a map over time. Then people started the trend of having adequate (but consistent and polished) detail as opposed to uber detail, such that a map that had lots of intricate detail would get a similar score to a map that technically speaking had less detail. Things change.

It was probably around 2011 that the "classic" resurgence started to happen? I'm not saying It Lives was the exact turning point, but I can see that some people would have played it, rubbed their hands together and thought "That's it, time to pack up. It's not worth investing the amount of time required to match or exceed this detail level". It's also around that time that you yourself seemed to make the switch to lower detailed design.
Interestingly Gambini himself has since said something to the effect of "It took me a long time to realize that you don't need high details to make a map look good, only enough so as to make the place believable/not to break the immersion".
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Re: Idea ?
« Reply #26 on: December 22, 2014, 01:52:01 PM »

Then again it'd be pretty interesting if Forge, Mikko, and some third guy not from either site "sat down" and decided on the top 5 or some similarly small number maps from each year. In terms of mods, probably the number 1 mod of the year should be sufficient, however it should be flexible so if there are 2 similarly good mods they should both be talked about (or no mods mentioned if the only mods are crap).

A top 5 would make more sense than trying to reach a consensus on number 1. Look at this year: Forge seems to favor Duke Craft, a map I didn't think much of. I, on the other hand, would vote Duke 2070 the best map while Forge gave it a pitiful score of 84.

"Mod of the Year" would be totally pointless as you implied. There are only one or two worthy mods released each year so it would be like women's Olympic hockey with just two teams figting for the top spot every year.
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Micky C

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Re: Idea ?
« Reply #27 on: December 22, 2014, 02:26:59 PM »

That's why it'd be interesting. Between the two of you and your opinions, there would be a pretty solid list of maps which for one reason or another deserve to be in the top 5. Then there'd be a third independent judge as a tie breaker.

If it was me for example I'd give credit to both of them; Duke 2070 for its impressive design and scale (but apparently horrid gameplay, it's not something I'd like), and DukeCraft for its originality, even without the custom assets; that lighting up the cave sequence for example was very memorable.
Depending on what else came out this year they might both make it. There have been a lot of mid-range maps, very few that genuinely stand out to make the history books.

If there's going to be a list there should be very clear rules set out beforehand regarding what constitutes a worthy map. Maybe there should be unique slots for "best looking", "most original" etc.
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Forge

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Re: Idea ?
« Reply #28 on: December 25, 2014, 04:26:17 AM »

Top releases of 2014?

in no particular order:
Duke Hard Episode
Duke Craft
El Paso
Insurance Overload
Nitroglycerin
Turok

Honorable Mention:
Hogwash
Slum Noir
Siebenpolis
Painkiller
Duke 2070
Beach CBP

I base this off of memorable experiences and not scores - even though I never technically played El Paso, crawling around in it to get screen shots left an impression.
« Last Edit: December 25, 2014, 04:30:38 AM by Forge »
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Duke64Nukem

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Re: Idea ?
« Reply #29 on: January 05, 2015, 09:47:04 PM »

Yeah El Paso was started by Norvak as you can see his bridges in the middle of the map. Then he sent it to me I added my corner in pretty much each mapper has there own corner while Norvak made the layout. After I did my part I sent it to Noldor Ranzou then it went to Fernando Marquez and finally to Vandclash. Also, it even when back around a few times to better connect the already well blended styles into game play. Norvak even went back and did some additional things after we all had our hand in it. Sounds like alot of work for a DM cbp, but it wasn't as a team project it kind of just fell into place and it blended pretty well I must say.
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