What are you working on.

Started by Puritan, 15 December 2011, 13:38:53

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Micky C

Spritework, if you can recognise what it's for in 2D orthogonal mode, you're doing it wrong.

Wall whore.

quakis

Spritework and 2D view? I feel like joining in! 8)


Forge

Take it down to the beach with a hammer and pound sand up your ass

ck3D

Quote from: Forge on  28 May 2013, 04:55:01
you can "misdirect", "deceive" and make things sound "ordinary" to the rest of the public (or you're as modest as you claim me to be), but this map is fucking beautiful - and when some background scenery gets added it going to be that much more spectacular looking.

don't let ck3d bullshit you  ;)

i am really happy that you like it so much, and appreciate your consideration, but just look at all those screenshots that just got posted in this thread, everyone's constructions are all much more impressive and technically advanced than anything i have ever built. i might have a clue or two about implementing atmosphere sometimes, but i have a limitation in my focus so that i can't bring myself to work with advanced effects and i could not even fancy spending hours on making just one complex event work in a duke map (ie. a large timed explosion, or huge bridge structures and the like - i have so much respect for people who do bother implementing such ambitious features). if anything i might have gotten a little better at basic layout and geometry with my last maps, and i try to put a little more thought into my tile picks than i used to a few years back, but essentially, my maps are not complex by definition, which is what i was trying to say.

Forge

"technically advanced" & "complex effects" are not replacements for great base architecture, articulate trimwork & detailing, good contrasting light and shadows, and excellent texture combos.

Take Gambini's It Lives. Leave in all the cool effects, but remove the excellent work he did to create the spooky atmosphere and all you have is a dull map with a couple neat tricks.

Flip it around and remove all those neat effects, but leave in the atmosphere. Still an excellent map.

Take Merlijn's Red5. Leave in all the ambiance and remove the few tricks he did in that map. You still have a cool and memorable map.

Look at all the high rated maps. Atmosphere is one of the big reasons they're rated at the top.
Take it down to the beach with a hammer and pound sand up your ass

Micky C

The only reason my screenshot looks that complex is because it's showing sprites from 3 different layers of sectors, it's not really all that special or complex; just lots of simple things shown together  :P
Wall whore.

High Treason

Quote from: Forge on  28 May 2013, 18:40:22
"technically advanced" & "complex effects" are not replacements for great base architecture, articulate trimwork & detailing, good contrasting light and shadows, and excellent texture combos.

I disagree, so long as the map looks presentable if there are enough effects/things to do, complex architecture is wasted as you wouldn't notice it if it were at all possible anyway. Maps with no effects are a snooze fest, nothing happening, nothing to do; might as well walk around city hall or something.
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methy

Quote from: High Treason on  29 May 2013, 09:23:30
Quote from: Forge on  28 May 2013, 18:40:22
"technically advanced" & "complex effects" are not replacements for great base architecture, articulate trimwork & detailing, good contrasting light and shadows, and excellent texture combos.

I disagree, so long as the map looks presentable if there are enough effects/things to do, complex architecture is wasted as you wouldn't notice it if it were at all possible anyway. Maps with no effects are a snooze fest, nothing happening, nothing to do; might as well walk around city hall or something.

Yeah I agree with that. Look  at Taivo's City Full Of Alien Scum : design is excellent throughout but it feels completely lifeless. It's like walking around a good movie on pause.
http://thisshitaintscary.blogspot.com/ - The only Blog solely dedicated to Horror video games

Micky C

Well there's definitely a minimum level of detail, shading and trimming that map must have (I think we can all agree the original levels are a good lower limit).

But in my view every new map should try to do something that hasn't been done before. Or at least do something better. Whether it's an effect, theme, location, gameplay, whatever.
Apparently Parkade is the most downloaded map on this website. I think a big reason for that is because it's interconnectivity is pretty much unparalleled. So in Parkade's case, it had a revolutionary layout.
Wall whore.

Forge

#279
Quote from: High Treason on  29 May 2013, 09:23:30
Quote from: Forge on  28 May 2013, 18:40:22
"technically advanced" & "complex effects" are not replacements for great base architecture, articulate trimwork & detailing, good contrasting light and shadows, and excellent texture combos.
I disagree, so long as the map looks presentable if there are enough effects/things to do, complex architecture is wasted as you wouldn't notice it if it were at all possible anyway. Maps with no effects are a snooze fest, nothing happening, nothing to do; might as well walk around city hall or something.
Quote from: methy on  29 May 2013, 10:24:43
Yeah I agree with that. Look  at Taivo's City Full Of Alien Scum : design is excellent throughout but it feels completely lifeless. It's like walking around a good movie on pause.
i'm of the other school then. Ambiance and how the maps presents itself visually are more important.
complex and advanced use of effects are not necessary. a map can get by on basic SE and ST purposes if the author uses them properly and creatively without doing the same thing over and over and over and over (i.e. Taivo's City Full Of Alien Scum).

Quote from: Micky C on  29 May 2013, 12:29:30
But in my view every new map should try to do something that hasn't been done before. Or at least do something better. Whether it's an effect, theme, location, gameplay, whatever.
theme and location are hard to pull off with a texture set that's been used by multitudes of people over the past 15+ years, but presenting a repeated theme in a unique way is important.
if you're going to cookie cutter your map from your own previous work and the work of others (i.e. Taivo's City Full Of Alien Scum), then there better be something special about the gameplay or environmental interactivity.

Take a recent map for example: Mikko's Hoover Dam. What was so special and memorable about it? There are quite a few dam maps out there, so nothing new or unique about that. Was it the donkey ride and the couple other effects that set it apart from its predecessors? Not really.
What put this map on a tier above all the other dam maps was detailing, architecture, and presentation.
Take it down to the beach with a hammer and pound sand up your ass

ck3D

i can see both sides of the argument and they are both valid to their respective extents. i think it's pretty easy from a player's perspective to tell whenever an element is missing in a map. as a mapper you just have to find the balance that seems right to you, and hope others happen to like it. i myself do not believe in über detailed maps with no atmosphere, but atmosphere and innovation (two keywords that just popped up in this discussion) are not always synonymous with a great deal of effects and advanced construction. in fact just simple ideas for an appropriate sound or visual effect can make a difference, no need to technically revolutionize mapping altogether with every single map that comes out, as long as it feels fresh and does not fall into a cliché, it will be rememberable and stand out for what it is as a whole.

about my map, every single indoor location is now 100% done. however, in addition to the unreachable areas surrounding the map i have a fairly time-consuming last minute idea to implement, and i want to take my time to throw it in so that it looks right, and i have to think about the gameplay more accurately as well. i am leaving in a couple of hours for 15 days, but i will get some time to work some more on this map when i come back. hopefully that will be enough for me to finish and release it.

Merlijn

#281
Quotethe way mapster32 makes it a lot easier to implement than how it used to be with the original build (when we had to do everything by hand, constantly switch back between 2D and 3D mode to see if our approximately placed sprites matched, raise each sprite one unit at a time only to have to do it all over again if you fucked up and accidently lowered a ceiling, etc.) is making it fun to make for me again, after a while of being put off by 3D sprite constructions due to old frustrations persisting, i am back to enjoying it

Same here, I noticed how much easier it is to create spritework nowadays and I love implementing them once again.

As for the discussion: design does have a huge impact on gameplay. Conceptual grandness and a well thought-out layout/progression are 2 important factors. If those 2 are pulled off very well, it makes a level much more enjoyable.

Of course, uber-detailled levels can still look and feel generic.

David B.

#282
I'm coming lately to tell my opinion about technical and complex effects. It's not essential to create a great map for me, just a nice addition.
Forge & Ck are right about the fact that atmosphere and innovation make all the difference : in this case, the added complex effects will kick ass and sustain an already immersive map.

But not the opposite : if atmosphere is lacking, environment looks dead, then advanced effects cannot catch up that difference. Is here the waste. The other major point is of course the gameplay, especially the progression in the map. The advanced effects, explosions, earthquake, crashes or whatsoever being something coming only after all that.
David B.

Merlijn

Since we're on the subject of atmosphere: progress on red1 is still going steady. Like the rest of the series, there will be a dark/sinister tone to the atmosphere. Not as in your face as red5, but it will be there. Below is a screenshot showing some stuff I love to do: adding signs of alien infestation and decay.

I'm already over 12000 walls btw, I hope the wall limit won't become a problem!



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High Treason

Excellent, I'm really looking forward to this, no offense but Red1 always felt like a misfit because the other maps were better made and overshadowed it somewhat. The screenshot certainly gives off the vibe of the red series anyway.
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