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General Category => Other Games => Topic started by: Micky C on 06 December 2012, 12:40:34

Title: Random Doom Discussion Thread
Post by: Micky C on 06 December 2012, 12:40:34
Every mapping site should have one  :D

I was wondering, which engine is superior i.e can you do more/better stuff with. The Build engine or Doom engine? I'm not talking about about the original engines either, but EDuke32 vs whatever people consider to be the best Doom engine for modding. I'm talking about better level design, better level details, more realistic levels, and of course which engine can produce the most modern looking stuff with the right content, not necessarily all in the same project.
Title: Re: Random Doom Discussion Thread
Post by: MSandt on 06 December 2012, 12:59:40
Doom doesn't really have anything comparable to our capability to create complex-looking structures with spritework. In fact, Doom has problems coming up with believable environments.
Title: Re: Random Doom Discussion Thread
Post by: Micky C on 06 December 2012, 14:12:43
In that case why does Doom seem to have a bigger mapping community? Are the editors easier to use or anything like that? Or is it just that Doom is a more well known and mainstream game?
Title: Re: Random Doom Discussion Thread
Post by: MSandt on 06 December 2012, 17:25:43
No question Doom was a bigger phenomenon back in the days than Duke3D was but I don't think that explains their community's current activity level.

The explanation is in fact quite simple: Doomworld.com. Duke3D was hugely popular when Dukeworld.com was still active but once it went down, a huge part of the community went down along with it. This never happened to the Doom community: Doomworld.com still is their base of operations.
Title: Re: Random Doom Discussion Thread
Post by: Merlijn on 06 December 2012, 18:07:44
QuoteRandom Doom Discussion Thread

Don't you mean Randoom discussion thread? ;D
Title: Re: Random Doom Discussion Thread
Post by: High Treason on 06 December 2012, 18:59:34
Doom sucks.

But - and it's a big but¹ - credit where credit is due to anyone that has made, or even tried to make, a decent map with that engine.

¹ and I cannot lie.
Title: Re: Random Doom Discussion Thread
Post by: quakis on 06 December 2012, 21:04:37
Useful resource below amonst the quotes, with links, for anyone interested.
Engine-wise, it all down to you're needs;

Want to have a vanilla experience, outside Dosbox?
Chocolate Doom (http://www.chocolate-doom.org/wiki/index.php/Chocolate_Doom) hands down. Eternity (http://www.doomworld.com/vb/eternity/62087-eternity-engine-3-40-30-alfheim/) is also a good choice while offering widescreen support, limit removing (http://doomwiki.org/wiki/Limit_removing) and Boom compatibility (http://doomwiki.org/wiki/Boom).

Want to play some Multiplayer? The following ports are used;
Zandronum (http://zandronum.com/) (Replaces Skulltag (http://www.skulltag.com/)), ZDaemon (http://zdaemon.org/) & Odamex (http://odamex.net/). For server browsers, check out Doomseeker (http://doomseeker.drdteam.org/) or IDE (http://doomutils.ucoz.com/)

Modding and Scripting?
ZDoom (http://zdoom.org/News) or GZDoom (http://www.osnanet.de/c.oelckers/gzdoom/index.html) (OpenGL, 3D Floors, etc). PrBoom+ (http://sourceforge.net/projects/prboom-plus/) is another alternative.

Editor;
I recommend Doombuilder 2 (http://www.doombuilder.com/). Has similarities to Build/Mapster, including 3D view. Also worth grabbing Slade (http://slade.mancubus.net/) for other aspects of wad editing/importing.

Quote from: MSandt on  06 December 2012, 12:59:40Doom doesn't really have anything comparable to our capability to create complex-looking structures with spritework. In fact, Doom has problems coming up with believable environments.

I disagree. Some random shots I took from Who Dun It (http://www.doomworld.com/idgames/index.php?id=17028) (for Zandronum (http://zandronum.com/));

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v220/deathquakis/th_wdi_doom01.jpg) (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v220/deathquakis/wdi_doom01.jpg) (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v220/deathquakis/th_wdi_doom02.jpg) (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v220/deathquakis/wdi_doom02.jpg) (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v220/deathquakis/th_wdi_doom03.jpg) (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v220/deathquakis/wdi_doom03.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v220/deathquakis/th_wdi_doom04.jpg) (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v220/deathquakis/wdi_doom04.jpg) (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v220/deathquakis/th_wdi_doom05.jpg) (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v220/deathquakis/wdi_doom05.jpg) (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v220/deathquakis/th_wdi_doom06.jpg) (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v220/deathquakis/wdi_doom06.jpg)

Quote from: High_Treason on  06 December 2012, 18:59:34credit where credit is due to anyone that has made, or even tried to make, a decent map with that engine.

There's plenty. Useful lists to start is the 100 Wads of All Time (http://doomwiki.org/wiki/Top_100_WADs_of_All_Time) & Cacoawards (http://doomwiki.org/wiki/Cacoawards) lists, but these are barely scratching the surface. The engine works well and people produce very high quality projects on a fairly consistent basis. While Duke can be fun at times, I personally find Doom a more enjoyable game (along with Quake & Thief; especially in terms of modding)
Title: Re: Random Doom Discussion Thread
Post by: Micky C on 06 December 2012, 23:25:42
Do you know if they're using some kind of ROR to make those 3D looking objects (especially the sloped ones)?

And btw, has anybody in the Doom community ever made anything as large and epic looking as the Siege Breaker episode from WGRealms 2?

Stuff like this: http://www.moddb.com/games/wgrealms-2/images/wgr291
Title: Re: Random Doom Discussion Thread
Post by: quakis on 07 December 2012, 16:33:33
It pretty much is a ROR effect using sectors. The process seems a little like a mix between Duke's ROR (assigning settings) and TROR systems (for visual editing), but they work differently. I'm no expert on them, only recently decided to look into their creation since you asked about it. From what I've seen so far, it seems much less planning ahead is required compared to Eduke TROR. Here's how the 5th screen above looks in the editor; [Click! (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v220/deathquakis/wdi3df_01.jpg)]

Large scenes can be done, but I can't recall many from the top of my head. I honestly haven't played enough Doom wads to say. Here's a screen of a large arena from a wad called DTS-T [Click Me! (http://www.dts-t.com/screenshots/DTS-T_map27.png)] [Release Thread (http://www.doomworld.com/vb/wads-mods/61991-dts-t-a-zdoom-megawad-available-now/)], and a large winter-themed level called Frozen Time [Click Me Too! (http://prboom-plus.sourceforge.net/frozent.html)] [Release Thread (http://www.doomworld.com/vb/wads-mods/62417-frozen-time/)] just imagine those arches from WGR, it's definitely possible.

Edit; This was just released today, Winter's Fury (http://www.doomworld.com/vb/wads-mods/62496-winters-fury/). It looks gorgeous! Check the screenshots for those 'large, epic scenes'.
Title: Re: Random Doom Discussion Thread
Post by: Puritan on 07 December 2012, 16:51:55
Man, The Winter Fury mod looks amazing  :)
Title: Re: Random Doom Discussion Thread
Post by: Loke on 07 December 2012, 21:54:23
Quote from: quakis on  07 December 2012, 16:33:33
Edit; This was just released today, Winter's Fury (http://www.doomworld.com/vb/wads-mods/62496-winters-fury/). It looks gorgeous! Check the screenshots for those 'large, epic scenes'.

Been playing up to map6a, great stuff so far. Playing on the standard difficulty (the one which it claims to be "normal") and it's definitely challenging but without being annoying. It's definitely a looker too, that's for sure. Interesting story too, hope it holds up though and doesn't lose focus or delve into absolute silliness.
Title: Re: Random Doom Discussion Thread
Post by: Micky C on 08 December 2012, 00:31:46
Some of those scenes do look pretty good.

Quakis what's that ROR effect called? I want to read about it.
Title: Re: Random Doom Discussion Thread
Post by: quakis on 08 December 2012, 01:09:03
Quote from: Micky C on  08 December 2012, 00:31:46what's that ROR effect called? I want to read about it.

3D Floors
http://doomwiki.org/wiki/3D_floor
http://zdoom.org/wiki/3D_floor

Edit; There's also something called Linked Portals for Eternity Engine. Sounds a little like the Blood/SW ROR system, but I could be mistaken;
http://eternity.youfailit.net/index.php?title=Portal
http://eternity.youfailit.net/index.php?title=Linked_portals

Project making use of this feature from Eternity, Vaporware (http://www.vapor.spork-chan.net/?page_id=7)
Title: Re: Random Doom Discussion Thread
Post by: Loke on 08 December 2012, 01:52:11
Finished it, pretty damn good. The final battle was insane, probably took 50 minutes to complete. Not that the bosses were particularly hard just that they had an insane amount of health.
Title: Re: Random Doom Discussion Thread
Post by: Micky C on 08 December 2012, 04:20:22
Sounds like sprites should be able to take care of most of the stuff that the 3D floors can do (and TROR can take care of pretty much everything else).

I'm very interested to see what Helix is going to do when the new map format comes out with what he calls r:n redwalls or something like that, which I assume will allow us to create ROR horizontally rather than vertically which could allow much greater control for things like true 3D lifts, and I'm hoping greatly increased functionality over creating smaller TROR objects that don't require you to cover entire areas with TROR unnecessarily, such as just to make one door into one building.

This shot from that winter fury thing looks simply orgasmic:
(http://i.imgur.com/714pB.png?1)
Title: Re: Random Doom Discussion Thread
Post by: High Treason on 08 December 2012, 05:08:46
I had a 3D Sector-based Lift in the prison map I was playing with, it was a major feature of the map.

Just for the record, SW allows you to make portals on walls, it is used in Zilla Construction (E1M2) at the end first, but is also in E1M3 on the mountain, E1M4 in the hut after the tank and many other levels, it is also possible in Blood using a small sloped floor, but only in narrow corridors because renderbugs happen a lot otherwise (and they are likely to happen anyway) - but it was meant to have wall stacks as there is an option for it in the object type list, I can't remember if that actually works but memory says no.

I might have to mess about with the Doom editor just for laughs, I don't intend to learn it properly but I might be able to run it on the laptop for something to do, my Mapster projects use too much TROR and DosBOX is too heavy for the poor old thing (K7 Athlon 2500).
Title: Re: Random Doom Discussion Thread
Post by: quakis on 08 December 2012, 19:27:32
Source port SVN builds for ZDoom, GZDoom, Eternity, and Editors can be found here for those wanting to keep up to latest dev builds; http://svn.drdteam.org/index.php
Title: Re: Random Doom Discussion Thread
Post by: Micky C on 09 December 2012, 08:56:34
How easy is it to learn Doom editors to the same extent as mapster32?

Edit: I finally started playing that Winter's Fury wad (I haven't really tried any Doom maps or mods before) and the detail and level design was fantastic! I've been missing out  :'(
The quality almost makes me ashamed to be mapping for Duke instead. I really really hope that guy spent a really long time working on each level because it would take a while doing something like that in mapster32.
Title: Re: Random Doom Discussion Thread
Post by: Loke on 09 December 2012, 13:25:18
The readme states that he's been working on it for about 4 years.

Quote from: Micky C on  09 December 2012, 08:56:34
How easy is it to learn Doom editors to the same extent as mapster32?

Start off using the Doom Builder 2 (http://www.doombuilder.com/) editor, it's really quite easy to get into fast if one is familiar with Mapster32. Editing is fairly similar to Mapster32 but obviously more basic (with vanilla Doom at least). There's also some basic video tutorials here. (http://www.doombuilder.com/index.php?p=tutorials)
Title: Re: Random Doom Discussion Thread
Post by: quakis on 27 December 2012, 03:15:41
Been looking forward to these, while there had been some delay from their usual date, the Cacowards are finally here!


The 19th Annual
Cacowards
2012

http://www.doomworld.com/19years/

Title: Re: Random Doom Discussion Thread
Post by: Puritan on 18 September 2014, 14:02:48
Well this post is a bit DOOM related.
I'll bet there are a few hard core DOOM 3 specialists around here.
I'm not...  ;)
Haven't touched it for ages but I do remember why I abandoned it:
The first real boss fight.
You know, the one that sometimes emits a blue light above it's head.
My question is: Am I supposed to aim at that light or the boss?
Is it certain weapons that counts?


I ran out of ammo several times and finally I had enough.  :P
Title: Re: Random Doom Discussion Thread
Post by: MSandt on 18 September 2014, 15:33:55
If you're talking about the boss in Hell then yes you need to shoot at the glow it reveals whenever it spits out new seekers.
Title: Re: Random Doom Discussion Thread
Post by: Puritan on 18 September 2014, 15:52:32
Quote from: MSandt on  18 September 2014, 15:33:55
If you're talking about the boss in Hell then yes you need to shoot at the glow it reveals whenever it spits out new seekers.


Yep, that's the bastard I was thinking of.
Thank you, Mikko.
Might fire up DOOM 3 one of these days  :D
Title: Re: Random Doom Discussion Thread
Post by: Micky C on 29 September 2014, 14:05:23
Never got very far in Doom 3, it just wasn't able to hold my attention. Even though I probably only played it for 10 minutes, it's clear that it hasn't aged as well as the first 2 Dooms.
Title: Re: Random Doom Discussion Thread
Post by: MSandt on 29 September 2014, 18:05:21
Quote from: Micky C on  29 September 2014, 14:05:23
Never got very far in Doom 3, it just wasn't able to hold my attention. Even though I probably only played it for 10 minutes, it's clear that it hasn't aged as well as the first 2 Dooms.

So, you're basing this on ten minutes of gameplay? Did you even make it to the first Imp encouter?

The last time I played the game was when the BFG Edition was released and it was still just as good as back in 2004.
Title: Re: Random Doom Discussion Thread
Post by: High Treason on 29 September 2014, 20:06:22
Quote from: MSandt on  29 September 2014, 18:05:21The last time I played the game was when the BFG Edition was released and it was still just as good as back in 2004.

So it sucked?
Title: Re: Random Doom Discussion Thread
Post by: MSandt on 29 September 2014, 21:08:08
No, still one of the best shooters, if not quite among my favorites.
Title: Re: Random Doom Discussion Thread
Post by: Micky C on 30 September 2014, 16:07:04
I also played a bit of the DLC and that was kind of fun but it got repetitive pretty quickly, on top of the extremely average shooting mechanics and incredibly simple level design.

Yes, I did judge the game pretty early on, but the onus is on the game to be able to grab your attention right from the start and hold it. Even DNF had a memorable and fun start to it.
Don't forget that my judgement on the game wasn't purely from the game itself but also the several years of opinions that had built up over the years. I might try it again some time but otherwise I've got better things to put my time into.
Title: Re: Random Doom Discussion Thread
Post by: MSandt on 30 September 2014, 17:56:02
Quote from: Micky C on  30 September 2014, 16:07:04
I also played a bit of the DLC and that was kind of fun but it got repetitive pretty quickly, on top of the extremely average shooting mechanics and incredibly simple level design.

Simple level design? When I played the game less than two years ago, I was still very impressed by the level of detail in those maps, the lighting and all the moving gadgets and machines everywhere. Just wonderful atmosphere throughout. I don't know how you're trying to play the game but it's supposed to be an immersive experience. You turn off the lights and play it with headphones on, not in broad day light expecting a Serious Sam type crapfest.

QuoteYes, I did judge the game pretty early on, but the onus is on the game to be able to grab your attention right from the start and hold it. Even DNF had a memorable and fun start to it.

Okay, but that's just a crappy attitude. Many excellent games, movies and books start off slow.
Title: Re: Random Doom Discussion Thread
Post by: Micky C on 01 October 2014, 15:33:37
Yes that's true, but even slow games (when done properly) still grab you right from the start, like Half Life. This just didn't do it for me.

By simple level design I meant layout/progression.

Maybe immersion is the problem. Then again, if a game can't be good on the gameplay alone, it still isn't worth playing.
Title: Re: Random Doom Discussion Thread
Post by: MSandt on 01 October 2014, 15:45:27
Okay, so what exactly is wrong with the layout/progression? For dark, claustrophobic maps I was rarely lost, and the maps weren't pipe-like rollercoaster rides either.

QuoteMaybe immersion is the problem. Then again, if a game can't be good on the gameplay alone, it still isn't worth playing.

Okay, this is a fundamental disagreement then. STALKER sucks in terms of gameplay but the immersion makes it worth playing through; several times. Far Cry 2 is mediocre in terms of gameplay but the jungle just keeps sucking you in. Of course, by gameplay Doom 3 doesn't come even close to sucking. The gameplay is very balanced with a good selection of guns and differently behaving monsters, many of which are truly challenging.
Title: Re: Random Doom Discussion Thread
Post by: Micky C on 01 October 2014, 15:52:31
My memory's a bit fuzzy but I vaguely remember the level design being quite straightforward and even linear.

I should probably give it another chance some time, but I don't see myself having the time for it for quite a while. Plus like I said there are other games (which I know for a fact I'll enjoy as opposed to this which could go either way) I need to play first.
Title: Re: Random Doom Discussion Thread
Post by: Puritan on 18 May 2015, 23:51:41
June 14'th may be an interesting day.


E3 - trailer (http://doom.com/en/)
Title: Re: Random Doom Discussion Thread
Post by: quakis on 12 September 2015, 02:58:52
Might as well throw a mention here;

50 Shades of Graytall (http://www.doomworld.com/idgames/levels/doom2/Ports/megawads/50shades), a community project, has been uploaded to the /idgames archive so that hopefully means a final release status. I contributed to this project taking the MAP05 slot. I'll just quote the news post from my site below;

QuoteThis Boom compatible community project, headed up by Marcaek, was started with a simple goal in mind; create a level only using the textures, graytall, fireblu1, doortrak and a single FLAT of choice. Skies and sky transfers were also allowed. After several months of development a total of 18 submissions were included. My contribution takes the MAP05 slot, titled Concrete Flagellation, offering a fairly short and simple romp – nothing too grandiose or difficult, but it does mark my first published Doom user level.

50 Shades offers a huge variety of experiences despite these self imposed limitations, managing to offer something different than the last through changes in mapping styles or direction they take gameplay. The difficulty can make some sudden spikes in later levels, especially on Ultra Violence, some even entering slaughtermap territory with their large monster counts and nail biting situations. Regardless I do recommend and hope players will take a look through what everyone pulled off using these ugly textures.

(http://taw.duke4.net/rel_50s01.jpg)

Title: Re: Random Doom Discussion Thread
Post by: Flinton on 05 October 2018, 13:52:30
Anyone here hyped up for Doom Eternal? I know the release is quite a few months away still, but I'm excited.
Title: Re: Random Doom Discussion Thread
Post by: Forge on 07 October 2018, 17:39:25
is that the one that triggered all the sjw's over some comment about demons being, 'soul challenged', or something like that, & they made invisible connections to say it was referring to illegal immigrants?

If sjw's hate it, I hope it sells a billion copies.
Title: Re: Random Doom Discussion Thread
Post by: Puritan on 30 October 2020, 20:57:39
Haven't played any Doom since Resurrection of Evil.
Finally had my first go on Doom (2016) today.....yeah I know, I'm slow.
But Doom was anything but slow  :o
The Resurrection of Evil was a walk in the park compared to the tempo it seems that this newer Doom is holding.
Hope I can keep up or else my bones will bleech on Martian soil forever.....